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Arguments for and against Article 50


NormanH
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Well in fact the opposing legal arguments as to whether the Government should consult Parliament before triggering Article 50

The case is  to be heard soon and the two points of view can be consulted here:

those arguing that Parliament must be consulted:

https://www.bindmans.com/uploads/files/documents/Article_50_final_corrected_and_unredacted_version.pdf

Those against:

https://www.bindmans.com/uploads/files/documents/Defendant_s_Detailed_Grounds_of_Resistance_for_publication.PDF

In my opinion it wouldn't make any difference as even Conservative remainers

won't vote against the Government.

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As someone who voted remain I think that because the people have voted for Brexit that should happen. I see no need for Parliament to vote on this and the application can be made  using the Royal Prerogative. What is important is that  we get the best possible result for the UK and those UK citizens living in other EU countries.

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Here is an article that, I think, sets out very well some of the objections to how May has interpreted Brexit means Brexit.  I don't think that anyone is now doubting that Brexit will happen though some of legal arguments will rumble on for possibly ever.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/07/marching-mad-brexit-someone-speak-48-per-cent[/url]

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Thanks for the link, Mint, that puts into words pretty much my feelings; I'm one of the 48%ers and feel that nobody is representing me.

It seems that the government has moved sharply to the right and wants to pull up the drawbridge, making us even more of an island than we are geographically, an extremely worrying plan.

I've just been listening to 'Farming Today' on BBC Radio 4; various producers of food have been speaking about how much they rely on people coming in to Britain to work on farms, picking vegetables etc. These are such important workers, who should continue to be able to continue to come in to our country to help provide our food, which fits in with the idea of free movement of labour; the government seems to be heading for halting the movement of people instead.

My husband spent a day in an NHS hospital on Monday; the specialist was German and some of the highly specialised nurses in the unit were from other countries. If we stop welcoming people like these into our country, there will be a huge crisis in many fields - and we hear that we already have shortages of specialised workers.

Get rid of foreign workers? Maybe they won't have to - some of the brightest and best in all fields will be looking for new jobs elsewhere.

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[quote user="Gardengirl "]

Get rid of foreign workers? Maybe they won't have to - some of the brightest and best in all fields will be looking for new jobs elsewhere.[/quote]

Yes, no need to get rid of them or to make them feel targeted and unwelcome.

With the falling value of the pound, many might well find that it no longer makes sense for them to work in the uk.

I saw a news clip about a Nissan factory in India and it appeared to be very productive and smoothly-run.  Maybe we might have to be competing with India for Japanese investments, or indeed find ourselves up against many Eastern European countries who already have thriving car-making and -assembling industries.

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I think everyone knows my position;; but the links in the original post were to the outline arguments to be heard in court on the question of whether the Government needs to consult Parliament or not before triggering Article 50

They make for dense, but interesting reading.

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It doesn't seem long ago that this legal challenge was suggested.

The whole issue is so depressing, I've got my head in the sand now. The main thing that's bothering us at the moment is that our monthly income is gradually being halved. And the car has expensive problems [:(]

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OK, so the £ is weak, but it was in 2008/2009 and only picked up again about 2 years ago. That is just one of those things. As our income is in €'s all changes affect us, and I just get on with it when it is bad and appreciate the good times, and that extra does get 20% gobbled up by the tax man!

Here are the Bank of England spot rates for each year.

31 Dec 06

1.467

31 Dec 07

1.4619

31 Dec 08

1.2588

31 Dec 09

1.1233

31 Dec 10

1.1664

31 Dec 11

1.1527

31 Dec 12

1.2337

31 Dec 13

1.1776

31 Dec 14

1.2411

31 Dec 15

1.3782

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......and of course most moved here by selling their house in the UK to buy a cheaper property in France. I am guessing for most that the desire to move to France was based solely upon cheap property given that most expats tend to move to areas with cheap property. Would British expats/immigrants (whatever they are called) move to France if the property was more expensive. No, of course not.

You can't have all the cake an eat it.

We arrived here with student debts and worked our way up the ladder....and we still have a mortgage and pay stupid amounts of tax.

So no sympathy here.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]......and of course most moved here by selling their house in the UK to buy a cheaper property in France. I am guessing for most that the desire to move to France was based solely upon cheap property given that most expats tend to move to areas with cheap property. Would British expats/immigrants (whatever they are called) move to France if the property was more expensive. No, of course not.

You can't have all the cake an eat it.

We arrived here with student debts and worked our way up the ladder....and we still have a mortgage and pay stupid amounts of tax.

So no sympathy here.[/quote]

You have absolutely no idea as to how expensive the France I moved to was.

In the Alpes and not the most expensive area, was basically London prices, and for this girl from the NE of England, shockingly expensive. The smic was far higher than my well paid job in the UK.

So no, we did not have an overpriced house to sell in the UK, got a huge mortgage in France and paid the house off after 20 years and it's selling price, as it should have done,  had only gone up with inflation. NOW if we had paid the same amount anywhere in the UK in 1982, we would have had a property of around £500K to sell maybe more, maybe a lot more, but as I said our french home had gone up with inflation and we got £200K.

We always get it the wrong way round for financial gain, and just get on with life.

The idea that all on this board, have benefited as you suggest is therefore, far from my life experience.

I also do not understand the sort of world I missed in the UK during my absence, so much is very alien to me.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]......and of course most moved here by selling their house in the UK to buy a cheaper property in France. I am guessing for most that the desire to move to France was based solely upon cheap property given that most expats tend to move to areas with cheap property. Would British expats/immigrants (whatever they are called) move to France if the property was more expensive. No, of course not.

You can't have all the cake an eat it.

We arrived here with student debts and worked our way up the ladder....and we still have a mortgage and pay stupid amounts of tax.

So no sympathy here.[/quote]

How you enjoy insulting us!  And, no, you are NOT correct in your assumptions.

I have spoken many times in the past of why we moved here and, no, cheap house prices was NOT one of the reasons.

Do you imagine that we, in our youth, did not have debts, did not suffer inflation AND interest rates of 15%, did not struggle to pay mortgages? Plus we certainly did not, figuratively speaking, eat cake?

And no, no, no, we do NOT ask for your sympathy!  If we wanted sympathy, you would be the last person we'd turn to...........

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Norman wrote: "So you feel that your (in my case erroneous) guess is sufficient to justify a mean-spirited lack of sympathy with people who have genuine worries?"

I don't think the average British expat/immigrant have a clue how difficult life is in France for the French. That is my point. Life is one big struggle in France. Everyone lives on the edge.

Like I said, I know France having started at the bottom in a run down rented 15m sq flat in Paris in a not no so nice area how difficult life is for everyone. There is no way my UK counterparts of my age would have put themselves through what we have done. They would have given up. We did not.

So winging Brits selling there houses in the UK for cheaper houses in France and being at the mercy of an exchange rate don't get my sympathy vote because putting yourself in that situation is pure stupidity. There is no point blaming right wing racists in the UK for voting out because they did not put these people in that situation. They themselves did.

Sorry. As a family we constantly adjust. It is the way it is France. We don't complain we get on in life.

We now live (family of 4) in a 60 sq metre box (back in Paris) with all the worries of a typical French family.

Sorry, I don't care your exchange rate problems. Life is the same for everyone.
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Albf said:

<>

Nobody was asking for you to care, as far as I can see. They made statements, much as you did. But you do seem to whinge about the position you are in from time to time, and just now about the size of your home. I haven't noticed anyone else whinging about the position they are in, simply commenting.

Mint, in conversation a few days ago, a friend was saying how high the interest rate was when they bought a house. He found it hard to believe that we had to pay 15% interest in the 70s after we moved south - that was a real shock, especially on top of higher house values down south.
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I have deleted out the more inflammatory bits from the following quotation, I think what remains is undeniably true.

 

So Brits selling there houses in the UK for cheaper houses in France and being at the mercy of an exchange rate don't get my sympathy vote . There is no point blaming right wing racists in the UK for voting out because they did not put these people in that situation. They themselves did.

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Except, Chance, I don't recall anybody blaming  "right wing racists in the UK for voting out.............."?

First of all, not all those who voted out were racists or right wing.  I am sure racists can be "left or right wing" and, more importantly, people who ARE racist will most likely NOT classify themselves as such.

In other words, one person's racist is another person's nationalist.  

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As often with that poster there is logical confusion.

The first flaw is the  generalisation about  Brits in France which has been shown to be untrue by me, mint and idun.

The second the assumption that those who are 'at the mercy of an exchange rate' are forcibly the same as those who 'sold houses in the UK for cheaper houses in France'

and the second assumption that they blame 'right wing racists in the UK'

The two propositions that I can agree with are:

British people living in France  with incomes in sterling are affected by the exchange rate.

They put themselves in that position.

I suspect that your lack of sympathy springs from  jealousy of those who, 'sold houses in the UK for cheaper houses in France'.

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