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May I brighten someone's day ?


ernie
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Oh no.

All those expats harping on about the perils of Brexit have now got nothing left to complain about. The Uk economy is booming when it was supposed to implode. All expats living abroad would have move back to blighty and live on a park bench. How embarrassed are they now ?

These born again economists should have stuck to watching the Jeremy Kyle show.

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My day was brightening up a treat until I got to the bit where it says

'A Government source: “We hope and expect to guarantee the reciprocal rights of EU and British citizens, but this is premature and wrong. No deals have been struck, formal or informal.'

Which is what I was wondering as I read it. Article 50 hasn't been triggered yet so how can anyone be doing random deals out of context, all anyone can do is tentatively outline their position on certain issues.

So why do they print it if it's premature and wrong. Everything still firmly up in the air - same old pie in the sky build 'em up and let 'em down tripe, just to sell newspapers. Grrr.
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Not sure about 'just to sell papers' - if that was the case they could have come up with a much more sensational headline.

My view has always been that, hopefully, behind the scenes that all civil servants, and all eu government ministers, are finally getting to grips with listening to the Voice of the People - and that they have to carry out the promise contained in the government pamphlet.

The pamphlet which stated that the Government 'would implement the wishes of the people' - that was a promise, and there should have been no 'fudging' about 'just advisory' because of what was contained in the Bill.

The promise was there, in black and white.   Or is any government minister or PM now going to admit that the statement was a lie;  in the same way that Heath's comment about 'no loss of sovereignty' was also a lie - to which he admitted 30 years later;  which was also the admission of an Act of Treachery against Queen and country.

So if the promise WAS a promise - then the UK will leave the eu.

But once the eu lot recover from their shock, one has to hope that sane, reasonable, civilised compromises will be reached.   Forget the grand-standing - and hopefully all the nastiness, the spite, the vindictiveness, the hatred that seems to be coming from Brussels.

It was always on the cards that there would be recipricol agreements;  there were pre-existing health and other agreements between the UK and France long before the eu.

I take it as an indication of the way the wind is blowing - sanity in the background somewhere.   But remember, too, with all the sheer spite being spouted by many eu kommissars, that when playing cards one never reveals one's hand....

So why should it be seen that the UK is already giving ground..... take a hard line and double-bluff needs to be the position at the moment.   After all look at Verstiethingy, and all the others.... you really want to give the UK's game and negotiating position away too soon when having to deal with such spiteful people.   Really ?

Chessie

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I am actually reasonably confident that adequate reciprocal rights will eventually be agreed - confident enough at least not to have rushed to apply for citizenship or a carte de séjour or anything like that.

But it's not over until the fat lady sings (not that May is fat) so I'd rather quietly wait for a firm and final announcement, than have my hopes built up and dashed time after time by reading speculation dressed up as something more substantial.
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Was reading yesterday, I think it was in le Figaro, that the terms of leaving will in any case need to be ratified by the European court of justice. So I don't see France or any other country can deliver any definite promises at this stage.

The gist of the article was that France and the rest of Europe is fed up with the UK refusing to put any cards at all on the table. How it got from that in the French press yesterday, to this in the UK press today, is a bit of a mystery.
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I have not and will not give the subject the slightest consideration, que sera, sera!

 

My gut feeling is that those who choose to do so will suffer years of self inflicted angst for what will amount to nothing in the end.

 

I might be totally wrong, I may have to walk away with nothing, worrying about it wont change anything, que sera, sera

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I love the way May and Davis talk about 'not revealing their negotiating strategy' as if there is some sort of secret option they have up their sleeve. Let's face it, there are only a handful of options available.. it'll be one of them and I'm pretty sure they haven't even got a clue which one they want to ask for yet. It won't be difficult for the rest of Europe to work out their hand.

With regard to the article, I think it's just the Telegraph speculating again. No one really knows anything yet. And reciprocal agreements won't mean much if MLP gets elected next year.
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[quote user="chessie"]

It was always on the cards that there would be recipricol agreements;  there were pre-existing health and other agreements between the UK and France long before the eu.

After all look at Verstiethingy, and all the others.... you really want to give the UK's game and negotiating position away too soon when having to deal with such spiteful people.   Really ?

Chessie

[/quote]

Thank goodness, once again, for some sanity!

Yes indeed, chessie, the reciprocal arrangements on state services and benefits have indeed been in place and deep embedded well before the Single European Act came into force.

Must also be remembered, at present there are apparently circa:

[quote]137,862 French-born people living in the UK. Almost half of these were resident in the capital, London.

 According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS) Labour Force Survey estimates for 2015, there are 3.3 million EU citizens in the UK – 1.6 million from the EU14, 1.3 million from the EU8, 300,000 from Romania and Bulgaria and the remainder from the other EU countries of Malta, Cyprus and Croatia. 7.

[/quote]

Any silly action would be reciprocal and impact as heavily upon the above as well as Ex. Pat Brits living in France.

[quote user="lindal1000"]I love the way May and Davis talk about 'not

revealing their negotiating strategy' as if there is some sort of secret

option they have up their sleeve. Let's face it, there are only a

handful of options available.[/quote]

When one enters into any negotiation and more particularly where contentious issues are involved, then one never ever places all one's cards on the table!

Instead the usual strategy is to ask or demand (depending upon circumstances) for far more than one actually wants; and concede on issues one didn't actually want in the first place.

Perhaps it is worth while to examine the extended and problematic negotiations post WWI which, eventually led to the Treaty of Versailles.

Then, in context, the Treaty (which in point of fact was a surrender and an unconditional surrender, too), with Germany which officially ended WWII.

Germany was smashed, physically destroyed and its insane leaders had either taken cyanide, shot themselves in the head or run away.

Consequently, there was no negotiation; rather simply a dictation and imposition of terms by far superior allied powers upon a totally vanquished enemy.

Many of you appear to believe, Britain is a busted flush and must drag its sorry tail over to Brussels as a humble supplicant seeking favours from a King! Which clearly, is far from the case!

The EU, arrogant and myopic and stupid as it is, has far more to lose then Britain.

At present, the ideologues are trying desperately to defend and justify the indefensible and unjustifiable, since to do anything else is to admit their artificial lumbering, monolithic and failed dysfunctional artificial construct, was flawed and wrong.

Which it damned well is and they know it!

Once it is seen to be wrong, then they will be seen to be wrong, too!

Impossible for supreme egotists to swallow, let alone admit.

Edit: Corrigendum:

I omitted to mention one salient point.

Many non-French people lived full-time in France; as they did, particularly in Spain et al, from  the 1950s and 60s on, and were not naturalised citizens.

Many American citizens did also and still do...

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The problem is Gluestick TM doesn't have that many cards to play with. I agree she may have a few but they are all quite obvious. The EU would have already worked out all the possible scenarios and their response. Hard to see how she throw them a curved ball.

Yes non French people have lived in France long before the EU, OH being one of them, but it was restrictive and awkward. At one point he wasn't legally able to transfer enough money back to the UK to pay the mortgage on the house he had there. Many people with businesses here only make a living because they can trade freely between the two countries: really reciprocal healthcare and permanent residence are of little importance if you can no longer make a living.

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I for one am very tired of people talking about Brexit as though it were no more than a game of cards[6]

That dreadful woman Priti Patel (unhappily misnamed) said that it was like a game of poker.

Oh but you don't show your hand, you have to hold your cards close to your chest, you need to keep one up your sleeve, etc etc ad infinitum.

No wonder these incompetents are making such a hash of things!

They are entrusted with the future of generations of British people and they think they are merely at the gaming table[+o(]

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[quote user="lindal1000"]The problem is Gluestick TM doesn't have that many cards to play with. [/quote]

Really?

The UK's massive contribution to the profligate EU budget?

The fact that last time I checked, two weeks before the referendum vote, the UK was in the three preceding months period in Trade Deficit in the EU's favour by £23.8 Billion! And these are stats from ONS, not a biased analyst.

After all the sabre rattling and threats and dire forecasts from the head honchos of the EU apparat, the German equivalent of the CBI, were advising Mad Mutti Merkel to very carefully consider the cause of the German manufacturing exporter; to Britain!

Riddle me this, Lindal:

1.  How many Nissan cars made in Britain do you see on the roads of France?

2.  How many Mercedes, Volkswagen, BMW, Porsche, SEAT, Skoda, do you see on the roads of Britain?

Next Question:

1.  How many Hotpoint domestic appliances do you see in France on offer? (And they're now Italian anyway since they are part of Indesit):

2.  How many Bosch, AEG,  Braun, etc ditto do you see on offer in the UK?

Etc.

Which global company owns a majority of British water and sewerage utilities? (It is French, BTW!):

Keep on going!

I could inundate you with business-econometrics if you like. But then, however, Wooly  would suggest I have nothing else to do.

I bloody wish!

[:(]

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But these aren't hidden or secret cards..everyone knows about them, even you..and everyone knows that free trade works both ways and the EU will lose out without it, but if you look at the import/ export data, not as much as the UK will. Yes the UK can trade with other countries, but so can the EU. I still don't see what there is to hide? Worst case senario , Volkswagen may cost a bit more in the Uk. Nissan have already been given a guarantee they won't lose out and they are part owned by Renault anyway. Yes EDF generate and sell electricity to most of the UK. I would have thought the UK would be more worried about that than France personally, as import duties would make electricity more expensive. Of course EDF could pull out of the UK leaving the building of the nuclear generation plant entirely to the Chinese? Still not seeing that hidden card.
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[quote user="lindal1000"]But these aren't hidden or secret cards..everyone knows about them, even you..and everyone knows that free trade works both ways and the EU will lose out without it, but if you look at the import/ export data, not as much as the UK will. Yes the UK can trade with other countries, but so can the EU. I still don't see what there is to hide? Worst case senario , Volkswagen may cost a bit more in the Uk. Nissan have already been given a guarantee they won't lose out and they are part owned by Renault anyway. Yes EDF generate and sell electricity to most of the UK. I would have thought the UK would be more worried about that than France personally, as import duties would make electricity more expensive. Of course EDF could pull out of the UK leaving the building of the nuclear generation plant entirely to the Chinese? Still not seeing that hidden card.[/quote]

OK, lindal.

For the sake of argument, then let's reverse the question...

What Big Stick/s does the mighty EU possess, with which to beat the UK into submission?

???

[8-)]

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It doesn't have to beat the UK into submission. The Uk, when and if it invokes article 50 will be stating it's intention to leave the EU..end of story. Hopefully by then the UK will have some idea of what sort of relationship it wants, but it is up to the UK to state it, not the EU to tease it out of them. The EU rules for membership are quite clear.. and to renegotiate them would require the agreement of all the other member states, not just France and Germany, so talking about hidden hands, bargaining chips etc. Is just daft.
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I totally agree with Linda and Mint. The economic data and the facts are well known to everybody involved, they're not in question, the only thing the EU does not know and needs to know is, in the light of those facts what kind of deal does the UK want? Well it's pretty obvious by now that the UK doesn't actually know what it wants but the longer it keeps shillyshallying, the more it's going to lose the respect of all the other EU leaders. It's acting like a child in a shop that can't make up its mind what it wants, and the adults can't get on with things until it does..
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[quote user="EuroTrash"]I totally agree with Linda and Mint. The economic data and the facts are well known to everybody involved, they're not in question, the only thing the EU does not know and needs to know is, in the light of those facts what kind of deal does the UK want? Well it's pretty obvious by now that the UK doesn't actually know what it wants but the longer it keeps shillyshallying, the more it's going to lose the respect of all the other EU leaders. It's acting like a child in a shop that can't make up its mind what it wants, and the adults can't get on with things until it does..[/quote]

What an apt analogy, ET[:)]  No wonder the adults are getting impatient and muttering under their collective breaths.

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Hey Glueys - What a strange way you have of debating !!!!! You seem to rely on known, provable facts and figures instead of vague suppositions, tenuous conclusions and a huge worry-bag of unspoken fears blighting your judgement.

I love it . lol.
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