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eu citizens in UK - brexit


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OK - I'm up for a bit of stirring here.

In the run-up to Brexit, and following the 'leave' vote, we had all sorts of comments about UK ex-pats living in the eu - and their rights, or non-rights etc.

All sorts of scare stories - all based on 'what ifs' and urban myths.

We even have a group which is working to ensure that UK ex-pats don't get ignored.

T May approached various eu countries, including Germany, to ask if there could be agreement about UK citizens living in the eu - and was told, very firmly that there could be no agreement prior to the talks.  So the eu refused this request.

Now I wonder how some of you feel listening to Corbyn, and the Labour Party, who are openly offering all kinds of guarantees to eu citizens living in the UK -

but absolutely NOTHING to guarantee any rights of UK citizens living in the eu.

No talk about reciprical arrangements - nothing.

Makes me feel that TM tried to get our situation sorted, but got no co-operation from Merkel or any eu country.

Labour - want to guarantee the rights of eu citizens in the UK -

but with no demands, no requests, for equal treatment of UK citizens in the eu.

So far from being used as 'bargaining chips' - seems Labour would ignore us,

and it is the eu itself which wants to use UK ex-Pats as 'bargaining chips' doesn't it ?

Strange old world.

Chessie

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The impact on EU citizens left on the wrong side of the future border would amount to "cruel and inhumane torture" in the US. Both May (despite her feeble attempts) and the EU heads should be held to account for the anxiety and stress caused to something like 4.5 million citizens.

I therefore applaud JC for his very moral stance - one of the few times I can actually say I really agree with him and what he stands for.

If this all goes T1ts up and May walks away - as she has threatened - then we are likely to see a European refugee crisis that will make Syrians in the EU look like a first rehearsal.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/26/brexit-eu-leaders-to-demand-may-respect-citizens-residency-rights

I just wish both sides would stop making grand vague statements and get their act together. Why are they arguing over what procedures are currently in place - surely somebody in the UK knows and can explain what actually happens when an EU citizen wants to apply to the Home Office, do they have to fill in an 85 page document or do they not? does the Home Office provide clear and helpful instructions or doesn't it? have people been denied residence for footling reasons or haven't they?
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Dont include me in your 4.5 million suffering anxiety and stress and as for cruel and inhumane............................... - lets just say that I am not a snowflake.

 

Our parents generation lived through real situations warranting anxiety and stress, not just fear of what might happen whipped up by speculation on social media. I have lived through far worse and had to adapt rapidly to events without any warning, if it all goes t1ts up are you really comparing our situations with that of the Syrian refugees or have i misunderstood?

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I think unfortunately the home office are not fit for purpose. They have been for a long time, nothing to do with brexit..but the extra work they face from 45000 additional applications from EU citizens who never felt the need before has thrown them into even more chaos. At the moment no EU citizen requires any additional documentation to allow them to stay..but many of them are understandably unsettled and want to take control themselves, so the 85 page document is the only procedure the home office has.

In answer to your question Chessie, I absolutely want the UK government to guarantee rights of EU citizens in the UK regardless. The organisations representing UK citizens in the EU also want that. They were having meetings with EU representatives long before article 50 was declared, something Dexeu only agreed to a few weeks ago, almost like an after thought.
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Cancer wrote:

Dont include me in your 4.5 million suffering anxiety and stress and as for cruel and inhumane............................... - lets just say that I am not a snowflake.

 

Our parents generation lived through real situations warranting anxiety and stress, not just fear of what might happen whipped up by speculation on social media. I have lived through far worse and had to adapt rapidly to events without any warning, if it all goes t1ts up are you really comparing our situations with that of the Syrian refugees or have i misunderstood?

Worst case if there is no agreement, is that we lose our right to earn an income - this snowflake is not affected by that - and may also lose our rights to permanent residence*. I think we are potentially both screwed on that one - perhaps you less than me.

* It will clearly depend on what visa arrangements then apply, but worst case is a visitor's visa valid for 90 days, with no residence visa available. If a residence visa becomes available it might look like the one for the US, where earning an income is specifically excluded.

There is therefore the potential, and I would not wish to put it stronger than that, that 3m EU citizens in the independent UK are forced to leave the UK and the 1.5m UK citizens in the EU are equally required to leave. [By leave I would limit it to "are denied permanent residence".]

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PS.. I think it was the odious Mr Redwood who used the term 'bargaining chip' to describe how he saw EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the rest of Europe.

I am actually quite confident that neither side want to see people who moved legally to another country forced to leave and a deal guaranteeing rights will be agreed. The sticking point will be the date that it comes into force. TM will want it to be retrospective from the date art 50 was declared and the EU want it from the date the UK leaves.. That's why the EU wouldn't agree to the UK's earlier demands. As Barnier said, you can't have a situation where someone who starts a job on the Thursday has completely different rights from someone who started on Friday of the same week.
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"As Barnier said, you can't have a situation where someone who starts a job on the Thursday has completely different rights from someone who started on Friday of the same week."

I don't really understand this because that is inevitable when there is a cut-off date.
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Yes, as Judith says.. anyone moving now is currently in limbo, not knowing whether they will be pre or post a cut off date. This is what is making it difficult for the NHS to recruit nurses, it means EU citizens in the UK are having difficulty getting mortgages and it is why so many people are applying for permanent residence, even though there is technically no need to do so at the moment.
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I don't see any justification in choosing a date pre-Brexit (ie the date it's finalised not the date article 50 was triggered or the date of the referendum) because until we leave, our rights don't change and it is definitely not OK to change people's rights retrospectively. So in a way it will resolve itself, because if nothing different is agreed then your situation of a person starting a job on Thursday having different rights to a person who starting on Friday, will not arise for the simple reason that if Britain is in fact to be treated like any other non EU country from midnight on Thursday, a Brit would not be able not start a job in France on Friday unless his employers had jumped through all the hoops to prove they couldn't find an EU worker to fill the post.

That's what makes sense to me, do you agree with that?
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[quote user="chessie"]OK - I'm up for a bit of stirring here.

In the run-up to Brexit, and following the 'leave' vote, we had all sorts of comments about UK ex-pats living in the eu - and their rights, or non-rights etc.

All sorts of scare stories - all based on 'what ifs' and urban myths.

We even have a group which is working to ensure that UK ex-pats don't get ignored.

T May approached various eu countries, including Germany, to ask if there could be agreement about UK citizens living in the eu - and was told, very firmly that there could be no agreement prior to the talks.  So the eu refused this request.

Now I wonder how some of you feel listening to Corbyn, and the Labour Party, who are openly offering all kinds of guarantees to eu citizens living in the UK -

but absolutely NOTHING to guarantee any rights of UK citizens living in the eu.

No talk about reciprical arrangements - nothing.

Makes me feel that TM tried to get our situation sorted, but got no co-operation from Merkel or any eu country.

Labour - want to guarantee the rights of eu citizens in the UK -

but with no demands, no requests, for equal treatment of UK citizens in the eu.

So far from being used as 'bargaining chips' - seems Labour would ignore us,

and it is the eu itself which wants to use UK ex-Pats as 'bargaining chips' doesn't it ?

Strange old world.

Chessie

[/quote]

I find it very worrying that no reciprocal agreement has been offered. Where does that leave us all living in France (or Spain or Portugal etc.). We've ploughed loads of money into this economy with building 2 houses, shopping, paying our taxes etc.
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But the UK and France (and other countries) did have reciprocal agreements long before the eu;  I'm sure I've seen references to health costs of UK ex-Pat citizens covered by Treaties which exist outside any eu arrangement;  look at the UK-French double-taxation... don't think that's an eu 'agreement'.

We have to trust that governments, not just the UK, will behave in a civilised manner towards their own citizens.

Started to watch a programme this evening about Brits abroad after Brexit - gave it 10 minutes then couldn't bear it.

There was one woman spouting on about no guarantee the UK would 'increase pensions' in future to UK ex-Pats.

The reporter obviously was taking a certain line, or didn't know her facts, and just let this woman blether on.

There are many UK ex-Pat pensioners living in countries right around the world - the majority of whom DO have their pensions increased, as if they were living in the UK.

The ONLY countries where the pensions are 'frozen' are those former Commonwealth countries where one of the conditions of the UK joining the 'common market' was that the UK had to CUT ALL TIES with the Commonwealth - and that included uprating the pensions - go and check.

So to hear this woman wittering on, just causing trouble, made me so cross I gave up.

We have to trust (all we can do) in the decencies of all the governments, and maybe some common-sense will be applied as in - 'revert to pre-existing reciprical agreements that existed before, and during, and separate from, any eu arrangements'.

Fingers crossed everyone - we won't be frog-marched up to the Channel.

Chessie

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It seems my comparison with Syrian refugees has been misunderstood. I had not intended to imply that the levels of suffering were comparable. What I was trying to draw attention to was that if there is a mass repatriation across Europe as a consequence of Brexit, the numbers involved (probably up to 4,500,000 is very much greater than the number of Syrians who have reached Europe - around 600,000 plus Iraqis, Afghanis, Lybians and a lot of hangers on.

The impact of such a mass movement of people would be much greater than the disruption that some see as a result of the influx of Syrians.

Chessie, I too saw that program and even I would concede that it seemed to have a very defined agenda. I did manage it to the end however. One area that did come over strongly was the loss of access to health care in Spain. I am no expert in such matters but it does seem as if, without an S1 or medical health card from the NHS, many UK residents will find it difficult or impossible to continue living in Spain. How grounded those fears are I cannot judge and if half true clearly in France we are at an advantage - at least under current rules and who can double guess what rules may pertain in the future?

However, regardless of whether the fears are grounded or not, the fact remains that there are a lot of ex-pat residents across Europe (including the UK) have very strong fears, and the politicians on both sides are guilty of doing nothing to assuage those fears and in some cases seems to be using those fears in a disgraceful way (pawns in the negotiation).

I therefore reiterate my stance that the stance by JC is a very moral one and brave one. Yes it is unilateral and yes there are no guarantees of the EU guaranteeing us the same rights, BUT such a move shifts the moral high ground to the UK and would put the EU under great pressure to provide reciprocal rights.
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'We have to trust that governments, not just the UK, will behave in a civilised manner towards their own citizens'...

Trust the tories, ha ha ha...[:D][:D][:D]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/28/brexit-european-health-insurance-card-ehic-healthcare-europe-uk

Just remember how vindictive they were when it came to the winter fuel allowance, the odious Duncan-Smith lumped in some exotic Caribbean Islands under French control to justify that it doesn't get cold in winter in France, and thus stopped paying the winter fuel allowance to British migrants in France.

Be very afraid...

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Where to start?  Maybe with Grecian as his is the last post.  I agree entirely that the Tories are vindictive and immoral.  Not all Tories of course, but the present cabinet up to and including May are weak as well as nasty.

As an aside, May is IMO only calling the election to smash the Labour Party to smithereens and in such a way that they might be brown bread forever and ever.  Nothing to do with strengthening her hand in the negotiations and all the top Euro bods have told her as much.  No, it is just to appease her own party and for her own self aggrandisement.  Of course, she does not have the depth of subtlety of thought to work out that all governments function better with a good opposition.

No, all she does is to repeat over and over that we need "strong, stable leadership"; in fact, she repeated that phrase 12 times in a 10-minute speech in Bridgend (near where I lived).  Talk about talking down to people and believing that brainwashing instead of proper debate is the way to go[+o(]

Then I agree with Andy; even if we do not get our reciprocal rights, I am more than happy for us to be magnanimous and start negotiations with generosity and in full good faith.  After all negotiations should always be about win-win and someone has to start first.  I have been a negotiator in lots of work as well as other situations and it's nearly always been the case that the opposite side responds well to generous overtures and everybody ends up with something.

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https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhealth/640/640.pdf

This is a link to The Health Committee's report on Brexit and Health and Social Care . In the section on reciprocal health care they conclude "It is in the interest of many hundreds of thousands of British people living across the EU to maintain simple and comprehensive reciprocal healthcare arrangements. The Government’s negotiating objective should be preservation of the existing system of reciprocal healthcare so that EU nationals in the UK and people insured by the UK in other EU countries can maintain their access to healthcare.".

It's a long report but worth a read.

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lindal, as someone who works, how could you possibly be affected by this, other than having to prove job and income to the Mairie / prefecture. You are paying into the system and that always was 'the' thing for getting health care.

When I first moved to France, I met people who had been there donkeys years, working in France and were just part of the system, so pre the UK joining.

And even then in the early 80's we had to 'prove' things, and have ID cards etc, but it was OK,........well embentant[Www], but OK as we always got there in the end.

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I don't think I was claiming that I might be affected ..the link was about reciprocal rights for pensioners, the use of the EHIC and the effects of uncertainty on the current EU workforce in the NHS and social care. I posted it because I thought others might be interested.

We will all be affected however if the UK crashes out without a deal.
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Thanks for posting that link lindal, I have read the relevant section pertaining to reciprocal healthcare rights in its entirety. I must say that I do not feel anymore confident now that the situation will be resolved to our advantage. The only thing that we can take comfort from in the section that you posted, is where it states it would be in the UKs interest financially to continue with the current agreement. On the other hand we now have an election in which May will be using anti-Europe rhetoric, and the right-wing comics will be stirring up hatred against the EU on a daily basis in an attempt to achieve a tory landslide. So I am not sure that any logic can be applied to the situation.

I am personally not sure that May will really care about a million or so Brits living in Europe, and a percentage will not be able to vote anyway since the tories lied again, saying that the 15-year rule will be revoked. The one thing that I am confident in, is that the EU will not want to see its own citizens shafted and will be firm in protecting EU citizens rights before granting the UK any talks on any future trade agreement with the EU.

I still cannot make up my mind as to whether a large tory majority will make May soften her stance on jumping off the cliff, or will embolden her and going completely flat out to show those nasty foreigners living on the continent how tough (she thinks) that she is. Judging by the slight rally in stirling since May announced the election, the money boys think that she will soften her stance, not convinced myself, I am getting ready to bring some more stirling over into euros before the rate turns south again.

I think that you are spot on mint with your assessment of May and the tory party, the only aim can be to smash the Labour party and totally dominate British politics, a scary thought really, certainly no thought for the country. I was never easy when both Thatcher and Blair had massive majorities, certainly not a healthy way for the country to be run. The last strong opposition we had in the UK was when Blair was in opposition, he was snapping at the tories day in, day out, although I did not like him he was truly effective. Cameron was pathetic when he kept telling Tony not to worry, we will help you vote your bills through.Sadly with Corbyn, partly through his own making, but mainly through the totally right-wing dominated media in the UK carrying out a character assignation on a daily basis, and the Labour MPs that forced a second leadership contest trying to weaken him. Hope they are pleased with their handiwork now, as some of them will now lose their position at the trough in the forthcoming election.
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Interesting comments;  - how about this  - it appears that it IS THE eu which is choosing to use eu citizens as 'bargaining chips' - NOT the UK.

Ms May wanted this sorted last year;  she'd approached Herr Merkel - got the 'nein'.

Read Juncker's comments - now do those of you who are always criticising the UK - still feel the same way?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/01/revealed-eu-has-secretly-plotting-block-theresa-may-eu-migrants/

Any of you read the extracts from

Adults in the Room : My Battle with Europe's Deep

Establishment
is published by Bodley

Head (£20).
by Yanis Varoufakis. What happens when you take on the establishment? In this blistering, personal account, ...

It would seem that the UK, in following the wishes of it's own people, will be dealing with some very, very strange fanatics indeed.

Chessie

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