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[quote user="Loiseau"]Mostly autoroutes, to be fair, nomoss. And I have noticed that autoroute driving has improved a great deal in the last year or two.[/quote]

That illustrates my point well, when the speeds increase a certain concern takes over and larger gaps are left. As speeds decrease a comfort factor comes in and gaps decrease.

Reducing the speed limits could cause more shunts not less.

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Really Thiere - pretty obvious that as speeds increase then stopping distances increase - this could accounts for the observed greater distances.

There are different dangers on autoroutes - idiots in BMWs etc going flat out to save a few minutes. Generalising, but these tend to be older idiots who can afford such cars.

Perhaps lane discipline is better nowadays so these idiots cant zoom up the backside of others stuck in the outer lane.

Its a multifaceted issue and speed limits are an important part of ensuring safety.

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[quote user="richard51"]Really Thiere - pretty obvious that as speeds increase then stopping distances increase - this could accounts for the observed greater distances. [/quote]

Now remember your new years resolution [:)]  Whilst in some parts of the world that would most definitely be true and logical. On N routes, drivers drive far too close at high speed already despite a fear factor coming in. And their stopping distances are 4 ish metres?  Knock the speed down and that self survival fear lowers meaning they will drive 2m-3m from your back end still not enough thinking or braking time.

So whilst I do agree, the actual human nature response is to drive even closer maybe?

Going off track slightly, if you want to slow night traffic down, limit the brightness of headlamps, over the years they have become brighter and brighter, now some have a laser light giving easily 50% further vision which if you can see better you can drive faster.

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Wow - incredible. People who drive 4m from your backside at anywhere near to the appropriate speed limit should be banned. Period.

https://www.drivingtestsuccess.com/pages/stopping-distances-and-the-theory-test.

My pet hate is lorries overtaking at 0.1 kph more than the other lorry. More of a problem in the UK as french roads are less busy.

In roadworks (many in the UK) it is so dangerous that lorries can travel at the same speed as cars (normally at 50 mph). Why do some lorry drivers automatically swing out to the outer lane? It is so intimidating to play dodgems with lorries.

At least on the continent there are sections that keep lorries to the slow lanes. Suspect transport lobby is influence in the UK (pay more in fuel but can minimise payment to drivers).

Agree with headlight power as well -. so selfish

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It’s just stating a fact. Presumably if I drove (even) slower I would suffer as so many others do. I can’t think of any other reason that I’m not tailgated every time I go out in my car. Well, I suppose it could be that it is not something that every French driver does all of the time. Wouldn’t that be amazing!

I can’t drive that fast, I passed my test in the ‘70s, have driven a lot every year since and have only ever lost one point. That was, once adjusted, for travelling at 91kmh in a 90 limit on a dual carriageway. I think I have every right to be proud.
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Going off track slightly, if you want to slow night traffic down, limit the brightness of headlamps,

Bright headlamps are not such a problem in this relatively poor rural area, where the vehicles are mostly not very new but the amount of people driving around with only one headlamp alight occurs with frightening frequency. If you are not familiar with this practise you could, in murky conditions, easily mistake the oncoming light for a motorbike.
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[quote user="richard51"]Not a fact, but an opinion. BnB.

Nothing to back this up, but lots of major accidents reported on the news in the UK do seem to me to involve lorries for some reason or another.[/quote]

No that is a fact. My car is not followed that closely. Fact not opinion. Sorry.

Do you want my opinion?

I’ve heard it all now, make driving safer by banning decent headlights.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

I thank God I do not live in your world.
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"I obviously drive much too fast. Nobody sits that close to the back of my car."

Sorry but that is an opinion, period!! You are equating, in your opinion, your driving too fast with the percieved lack of cars up your backside. Have you a rear view mirror?

Dont think banning headlights was mentioned, but have you never been dazzled by these high power headlights - or are you driving to fast to notice?

Lorries again, but have you ever met, coming the other way on a D type road at night, a lorry lit like a fairground attraction! Really impressive when its foggy as well.
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[quote user="BritinBretagne"]

I’ve heard it all now, make driving safer by banning decent headlights.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

I thank God I do not live in your world.[/quote]

I knew it would cause controversy but based on when I was out rallying with 400watts of forward facing Cibie spotlamps I could easily drive around at 90MPH on forest tracks and country lanes. OK I was younger with much younger eyes and cat like reactions but you couldn't do that on standard headlamps (of their day)  Generally the poorer the visability the more careful (slower) you'll go, try driving on side lights only.

If all the speeding motorists are in their teens to late 20's they will be able to drive faster at night anyway due to better eyes and faster reactions.  What age are they, any data?

Maybe BnB around your way the message is getting through about not tailgating, even the thickest will eventually approximate thought.  Maybe you don't drive across france much.  However I when I drive across France and others posters have said the same, there has to be those who do drive too close and I certainly see that more than people on their mobiles.  On some stretches of the N154, N10 route that I use that were 110KPH but are now 90KPH, last journey I counted 15 of the black mort figures beside the road so not much has changed since cutting 20KPH off the limit. I will be fascinated to see that drop to zero by reducing the limit to 80KPH

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T - good points.   It amuses me so much when, in posts such as this, most of us are making the same points, there is always one who says all of us are wrong because such incidents never happen to them - and we're all wrong and one poster is right !!

Agree with you about speed;  speed kills only when the driver isn't experienced enough, or has not enough road/technical ability/skill to be able to read the road, to anticipate situations building ahead - and to know how to drive defensively.    It is sometimes better to be able to accelerate out of a situation rather than just 'slam on the brakes'; but to do that, one has to have read the road.

Maybe the city drivers are better, maybe not.   But assuming most posting on here live away from the big cities then we're all experiencing much the same - of drivers who DO sit on one's rear bumper.   And then the following drivers sheer inability to read what is happening in the traffic ahead can be dangerous - because they are too damned close, leading to rear end shunt, as they are too close and unable to stop in time.

Most of us have experienced it, it is a problem - and it is NOT, as someone suggested, because we're driving too slow - in fact with a tail-gater it's possible to break the speed limit and they are still there, glued to one's rear bumper.

It is a lack of sheer driving courtesy/safety aspect on the part of many french drivers;  if it is standard practice - then there IS something wrong with their initial, basic, driving instruction.

As for the headlights issue;  agree that today's bright, bright headlights are good for the driver - but they can sometimes be quite blinding for oncoming drivers - not everyone is quick enough to dip the beams..... and with narrow roads, narrow verges and ditches this can sometimes present problems.    Yes ?

Chessie

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Chessie, It may have been me suggesting driving slowly can lead to a drop in the fear factor and therefore more bunching than when moving quicker when a fear factor is more present.

The fact that slamming on the breaks doesn't stop what's going to happen next be it rear shunt or sliding into whatever is in front is just because vehicles are too close.  I have hopefully enough self discipline left after years of practice at removing my foot from the break and re-enabling the ability to steer around having scrubbed off some speed. I much prefer giving space though. Perhaps that has come through the years of experience. Personally can't wait for driverless cars, no enjoyment motoring any more.

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T - no, wasn't referring to your excellent posts - just another 'one' who said they'd never experienced what many of us are complaining about, and then suggesting it was all our fault because we drove too slowly !!   Which I feel is generally untrue because from personal experience I've had a bumper-clinger still clinging on even when, just as an experiment, I actually went quite a bit over the speed limit - and it was still there... hanging on grimly.

As for 'slam on the brakes' - I don't.  But it is many drivers first instinctive reaction - when sometimes the ability to accelerate out of trouble is the better option.  What I've developed over the last 30 years, thanks to IAM - was cadence braking;  that did get me out of a potential fatal accident when, on a UK dual-carriage-way, a motor-cyclist pulled out, straight in front of me without really looking;  immediate cadence braking on my part brought my car to a stand-still fairly rapidly.   But that was the closest, and nastiest, experience I've ever had.  I had been aware of the motor-cyclist, and was watching him for any potential problems - much as I love motor-bikes and riders I'm aware they are more vulnerable than us motorists.  So that was a combination of anticipation, reading the road - and cadence braking saved me from possible fatal accident.

Interesting posts.

Chessie

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I wonder if any other long-time members of the forum can remember someone posting about their surprise at their children being taught at a French driving school to 'keep up' with the vehicle in front ? The original poster, brought up in England, unlike his/her children was worried about this. Maybe it really is a French thing.
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Maybe they were in Paris?

I leaned to drive in France, and we were taught about safe stopping distances and respect for other drivers (and pedestrians, cyclists etc). No one mentioned keeping up with other drivers, maybe that's why people tailgate me?
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The thing is, if you leave an adequate gap between yourself and the vehicle in front invariably someone will come along and nick it. Particularly on autoroutes.

If you are in the fast lane the car behind (or not) will use the middle lane (or slow lane then middle lane) to undertake you and force there way into that space. You then brake, leave a safe gap and it all starts again.

The idea therefore is to leave a half a cars length between you and the vehicle in front. If you don't you will go backwards and will never get to where you are going.

On a serious note, that is actually what sometimes you have to do. Half a cars length. So in effect I am tailgating but in a self preservation way..

Same can apply to single lane carriageways. If you leave a gap, it encourages those behind to overtake.

What is the lesser of two evils ? Not being at a safe distance to the car in front or leaving a gap where some hero will try and fit their car in and risk a collision.
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Hoddy - yes, you're quite right;  I also remember that comment, and it sparked quite a debate at the time as well (much like this one - so nothing's changed !).

Wasn't there some mention along the lines of 'follow closely the car in front, reduces drag and helps give better fuel consumption...' ?  Sure I read that little gem somewhere.  

(Reminds me - one experience driving round rural roads, was being followed very closely by young man on motor-bike - he was very close, I'm driving reasonable speed for conditions - and he really didn't want to overtake when I slowed down.   Maybe by  following closely the car in front - get tow from aerodynamic effect.   Hey, isn't that the Formula 1 GP drivers do ?   !!!!

Bets - interesting about stopping distances; but what was taught about keeping 'thinking space' from the car in front of you ?   On the motorways (sorry, it's UK because that's where I learned and drove for many years) - but isn't the advice to take a road marker on the side of the road, and count three seconds to keep a gap between yourself and car in front ? - ie that's the thinking/braking distance.

What's the french equivalent of the Highway code ?   Anyone got a copy ?   What sort of guidance is given in that official document ?

There really is a problem with some french drivers - it does cause a lot of comment - so the 'official' guidance would be interesting to read.   Shame there's no french driving instructor around to contribute to this discussion - might be interesting.

Anyone ?

Chessie

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The time I remember most (in France) was when following the hearse "mini-bus" to the Crematorium for my mother's funeral, a journey of about an hour.  The nice lady in the undertakers had said: just follow him - he will drive slowly. Er...he was French and his driving did not seem slow to me! At one point I got a bit behind and a "white van" got between us. He quickly overtook the hearse too but all I can remember is my Dad (in the car with us) saying "do keep up"...

Mrs H.

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Yes, Hoody, you are quite right. As is your explanation .

But, my private view is that driving on the white line was designed so that drivers after dark who were going home, with weak headlights ( remember the orange ones? ), pissed, could follow the line in safety.

The problem arose, of course, when another rural drunk was going the other way.?
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I can't do clickable links (of course) and the code isn't available online, but there are some online tests for revision...

https://www.codedelaroute.fr/

http://www.coderoute.com/test-code-de-la-route/

http://www.passetoncode.fr/nostests_gratuit_examen.php

Have fun!
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[quote user="chessie"]T - no, wasn't referring to your excellent posts - just another 'one' who said they'd never experienced what many of us are complaining about, and then suggesting it was all our fault because we drove too slowly !!   Which I feel is generally untrue because from personal experience I've had a bumper-clinger still clinging on even when, just as an experiment, I actually went quite a bit over the speed limit - and it was still there... hanging on grimly.

As for 'slam on the brakes' - I don't.  But it is many drivers first instinctive reaction - when sometimes the ability to accelerate out of trouble is the better option.  What I've developed over the last 30 years, thanks to IAM - was cadence braking;  that did get me out of a potential fatal accident when, on a UK dual-carriage-way, a motor-cyclist pulled out, straight in front of me without really looking;  immediate cadence braking on my part brought my car to a stand-still fairly rapidly.   But that was the closest, and nastiest, experience I've ever had.  I had been aware of the motor-cyclist, and was watching him for any potential problems - much as I love motor-bikes and riders I'm aware they are more vulnerable than us motorists.  So that was a combination of anticipation, reading the road - and cadence braking saved me from possible fatal accident.

Interesting posts.

Chessie

[/quote]

Please read my posts before misquoting me.
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Just for the record the 1st rule of the road - France, keep to the right except when overtaking, UK, keep to the left except when overtaking. The label of autoroutes and motorways having slow, middle and fast lanes is a misconception. On a 3 lane highway there is a driving lane and 2 overtaking lanes.

The safe driving distance between your vehicle and the one in front is the 4 second rule and yes people will leap-frog it. Better to arrive where you're going slightly later under your own steam than on a gurney or in a body bag.

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