Naturalisation

[NormanH]

Apparently there has been a large rise in the number of British people asking for dual Nationality.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-britons-french-citizenship-application-surge-264-passports-a7802291.html

[woolybanana]

Face it, Norman, it ain't natural!

[andyh4]

Not entirely surprising under the Brexit circumstances. For those who are earning a living in France - and especially if they are self employed - the impact of Brexit could leave them in an untenable situation as British persons. Better to act now than panic when and if details are known.

[richard51]

With Maggie Mays opening gambit today and the 3 million vers 1 million comparison I don't think there will be a problem. Brexit should not happen with such idiots representing us.

[richard51]

Must admit though, I think that Brexit has focused the mind of the EU which does need radical change.

Macron with his ideas of a United Nations of Europe might well be a problem though.

If we do leave then perhaps it is reasonable that relatives of those just arrived in the EU or UK to work should be automatically given total rights (or not!).

Why on earth is the benefit system in the UK based on residency in comparison to other EU country systems.

[DraytonBoy]

@andyh4, as someone who pays into social security here why would my nationality be an issue after Brexit?

[lindal1000]

I think it depends how much you earn. As in the UK, there are minimum income levels for legal residence and although not the 30000pa you need in UK it is would be more than many people here on pension income get. It is quite a bit less for EU citizens.

For us, we just decided we didn't want our future to be part of TM's bargaining process and getting nationality would enable us to remain EU citizens

There are also potential issues if you are self employed as the requirements for non EU citizens to set up businesses in France are much stricter. I don't think re AE/ME is possible if you are not an EU citizen. Add in recognition of qualifications as well (although that would probably only be a problem for new arrivals).

[andyh4]

DraytonBoy wrote:

@andyh4, as someone who pays into social security here why would my nationality be an issue after Brexit?

Well let me start that I am in line with Richard51 and do not believe that there will be a problem. But that is a belief and it is not knowledge.

Worst case scenario is that UK citizens will be treated like other non-EU nations. In the case of the US, its citizens are required to hold a long term residency visa, and this visa specifically prohibits them from working.

Is that where we are heading? No one can say at the moment - although we can all express our beliefs. Certainly the situation of someone like you currently working in France is different to an American turning up in the Hexagon but it is impossible to be sure how things will turn out.

To avoid that uncertainty I can see why some will want to secure their situation by taking French nationality.

[EuroTrash]

@DraytonBoy, because the only reason you can work and pay social security in other EU states without jumping through hoops, is that you are exercising your right as an EU citizen to freedom of movement for workers.

Although nothing has been decided yet it is more than probably that UK citizens will lose that right after Brexit.

That would put you in the same position as US/Australian/Indian etc citizens, who if they want to come and work here, have to be sponsored by an employer to get a work permit, then get a visa, then get a carte de séjour, go through the OFII (the immigration and integration office) process which involves language and integration classes... etc.

I think a lot of Brits don't realise what a difference EU "freedom of movement" makes. Outside the EU every country has its own rules on who can go and work there, eg Australia has a points system. France's criteria for work permits is basically that the employer has to prove they've tried but failed to recruit a suitable French/EU candidate for the post, thus ensuring that only workers with needed skills come here from outside the EU.

[Chancer]

[quote user="andyh4"] Better to act now than panic when and if details are known.[/quote]

 

More like "better to panic now than act if it ever happens and when détails are known"

 

Everyone will do what feels right for them, the problem as I see it is people projecting their insecurities on forums and panicking the vulnerable.

 

27 applications in Picardie. Zero the year before, probably zero every year, I have only ever met one person who had done so and that was before I even moved here and he had done it some 20 years before that and it was from Lille in the Nord.

[EuroTrash]

+1 to Chancer. I don't see the point in trying to second-guess what we'll be required to do. The powers that be haven't decided yet. My hope is that there will be a simplified streamlined procedure introduced for Brits who have been here for 5 years; or if not, worst case scenario is we will have to go through the normal procedure that people applying now are having to go through. I don't see any reason to suppose that there will be anything to panic about for most people, the EU has specifically committed itself to trying to avoid disruption and stress to people. So I see a potential advantage in waiting and no advantage at all in being panicked into acting now, before giving the EU/France a chance to work out a simple efficient procedure that is less time wasting both for them and for us.

[Chancer]

It all dépends on your mindset, some who get really stressed by uncertainty and who lap up all the scare postings they read may convince themselves that they are taking some control over their destiny, those that then want others to do likewise probably are not managing deep down to convince themselves.

 

The irony is that before the panic I had intended, when I got a round tuit, to get dual nationality and to do a Francisation of my name, not to remain in France but I thought that one day in some far away place in a future world having 2 different nationalities, passports  and names might come in usefull, perhaps to do a Reggy Perrin!!

 

With the surge of applications I am going to bide my time, there might even be a disadvantage in doing it at present.

[alittlebitfrench]

I would rather move back than get French citizenship. If you think getting French citizenship will make you more accepted then you are in for a shock. You will always be anglais so you may as well keep that status.

[Chancer]

Even the women?

[andyh4]

ET

The problem with following the "normal procedure" as you suggest is that it is currently (and I assume the surge in requests from Brits has an impact) it is a very, very slow process* - and always supposing your dossier does contain every single document that they require.

Now if (and it is a big if) the agreement is that Brits will lose an automatic right to work the rush to get French nationality is likely to slow the process down so that people could literally run out of time and find they can no longer legally work in France.

* On other forums some people started to gather the info and documentation almost as soon as Brexit was announced. Now 1 year on, not one has completed the process although some have had their dossiers submitted back in the early autumn.

[alittlebitfrench]

Women have got no chance Chancer.

Having said, I was driving downtown suburban Paris the other day at 3am (like you do) and to be fair it did look like downtown Stoke on Trent (or Eymet) on a Friday night.

I am not sure the women were carrying razor blades in their handbags mind you but half certainly did have their bits hanging out from all sorts of places.

Vivre the EU.

[EuroTrash]

@andyh4 - I simply do not believe that under any circumstances any EU state would take away the right to work of a Brit who has been there legally for 5 years, has submitted a dossier and is waiting for it to be processed. It would be totally contrary to everything the EU has said up to now and I don't think it would be condoned. Regardless of what the UK does or doesn't do.

My guess is that a streamlined procedure will be introduced in states with a lot of resident Brits.Then what will happen to people who have already put a dossier in - will they cancel it and lose their money and start again using the simplified procedure instead, or will they stick with it even though they no longer need French nationality..

[idun]

How could I have ever considered this during my very very long time in France?

Simply, because I am not french, I may seem more than a little bit french in lots of my ways of looking at the world,  to friends here in England, and sometimes even to myself....... BUT,  I am not french and I never will be. AND to take on another nationality to me means completely embracing another country's culture, their way of living and thinking, and for all I accept living in France and french 'thinking' has affected me in so many ways, I am still a million miles from thinking like a french person does about much in this world. And in my mind, it just would not have been right for me to even consider taking on french nationality.

Also, there is another thing, and I realised after about a year or so in France that amazingly my view had changed and I had become a royalist......and I never imagined living in a Republic would do that to me, because I was rather anti royalist before I left my native shores. THEN, not only seeing a republic in action, but the very idea that Thatcher would probably have been President sent shudders down my spine and seeing the rabble of politicians who could want the position in the UK, I'll stick with our royalty system thankyou all the same.

Are any of you really getting worried about this???? For once I have hardly watched any french news, Macron and his new government are sort of creeping me out........ and I cannot say why, I just feel very uneasy about it all, and I cannot tell you why. Nevertheless, I really do hope that they are just the ticket and do some good.

[lindal1000]

I don't think everyone applying for nationality is doing it out of panic. Some people just don't want to feel that they are bargaining chips and prefer to take the initiative themselves. The recommendations from the groups that are lobbying with all governments is that there is no need to do anything at the moment unless you want to, but to ensure that your affairs are in order..So if you are living in France without health insurance, or on a very low income, or have never filed a tax return, or 'live' in the Uk but spend 300 days a year in France, or are just generally under the radar, then you need to regularise your situation before the Uk leaves, and have proof of it.

The people I know who have already applied for nationality are mostly people who've lived here years, have French partners/ and or kids.

ALBF..if you do end up going back to the UK you'd better make sure you have a job earning more than £30000 pa as that is what you need to bring your wife and family with you once the UK is out of the EU.

[NormanH]

Thank you Andy for reminding me of the position of those who are still working here. I tend to think of my own situation obviously and for me the only major practical change it would bring is the right to vote in France.

On the other hand contrary to how idun feels I have never felt less British.

This is partly political with the cowering submission to the rabid right that has been sold by the gutter press, and partly cultural, where English and European tradition seems to have been raped by American "Macdonaldisastion" of everything .

I agree that I am far from 100% French in my thinking, but just as I was pleased to hear  le Villepin speak out at the UN against the Iraq war so I was proud to hear 'our' President stand up to Putin and Trump.

[alittlebitfrench]

I stand with Idun on this one.

Unless you have lived in France a long time and truly understand France and more importantly how diverse France is multiculturallly then you realise that gaining French nationality will not change anything.

I personally think you will complicate your life getting French citizenship. To suggest you are less British and more French is nonsense. What does that mean exactly ?

[DraytonBoy]

So lets get this right, we've been running a business here since 2007 but could still be forced to apply for a work/residency permit? Does that also mean our kids who work here will have to do the same?

[EuroTrash]

@DraytonBoy, well it depends entirely on what the outcome of the negotiations is doesn't it, that's why it would be nice if they'd get on with it and come to an agreement, to end the uncertainty. Personally I think it's likely that as a non EU citizen we will have to get a carte de séjour but I think that for anyone who has been here legally for over 5 years it it will be a formality, a form to fill in and a few papers to produce. If your kids weren't born in France and don't have French nationality then yes they will have to do the same. If they were born in France they can take nationality when they reach 18.

[alittlebitfrench]

I agree with Ann lol. Seriously, people are giving their arsê a headache about all this.Tim you and your family will be fine.

I just hope those in Eymet who buy their weekly shopping in the UK will get kicked out. Poetic justice in my book.

[andyh4]

ET wrote:

@andyh4 - I simply do not believe that under any circumstances any EU state would take away the right to work of a Brit who has been there legally for 5 years, has submitted a dossier and is waiting for it to be processed. It would be totally contrary to everything the EU has said up to now and I don't think it would be condoned. Regardless of what the UK does or doesn't do.

My guess is that a streamlined procedure will be introduced in states with a lot of resident Brits.Then what will happen to people who have already put a dossier in - will they cancel it and lose their money and start again using the simplified procedure instead, or will they stick with it even though they no longer need French nationality..

Regarding whether the right to work would be withdrawn, you have to understand the mechanics of Napoleonic (not just French) law. Everything that is not codified as specifically permitted is illegal. [As opposed to the UK and its law where everything that is not specifically prohibited is allowed.] Do I believe that there will be something in the discussions that will cover people who are in the process of changing nationality as Brexit takes effect? No I don’t. So the right to work will rely on an agreement across Europe that nationals who are working on the wrong side of the border may continue to work post Brexit. Will that happen? I personally think so (maybe with restrictions) but who can tell.

What will happen to those who already have a dossier in process? Nothing, absolutely nothing. The assumption must be that these people want to be French and not that they are economic migrants who wish to secure and regularise their situation. So whether there is or is not a fast track process for other Brits in France will have no bearing whatsoever.

Idun

I have more than a little sympathy for your view. I have posted before that I could live to be 100 and stay in France and I would never be French. The same was true regarding Germany. I am and always will be British, but like Norman I begin to despair of what the Britishness is beginning to mean. [And especially when I hear Goebbels Leadsom trying to tell the UK media how they should behave.] I guess that in the 20+ years I have been out of the UK I have developed a European perspective and I feel more European than British. It is hard to describe exactly what that means but it is less of an affinity with any one nation but more a feeling of belonging to a community made up of many nationalities. I am sure that will be an anathema to you Id but that is how I feel, having spent much of that time working with French, Brits, Danes, Dutch, Belgians, Poles, Italians, Spanish, Germans, Austrians, Croats as well as other European nationalities from further afield