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Formalities


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There is an article on the main part of this board about what one should know before moving to France.

One part of it said that one should dress formally when going to the notaires for the signing.

I remember well us going, we were 'tidy' not in our  best clothes though, and our notaire in a well respected 'cabinet' in the centre of a big french city was a scruffy oik.... yes, all those years ago and he looked like he had just tipped out of bed. Hair all over, tee shirt, jeans and baskets.

So how was it when you all signed. Did you imagine it would be a 'formal' occasion??? And was it????

And a footnote, I once accompanied someone I knew for a court visit,  and below all the robes, rather a  lot of the avocats were wearing baskets and jeans. Obvious as they walked along... as the white of their shoes were showing,  as were their jeans. So once derobed, they would probably be rather 'casual' to say the least.

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Didn't dress up. In our village, I've yet to see anyone dress up for anything much. Certainly not weddings or funerals.

If I'm about to hand money over to someone, I'm not sure I feel it's up to them to dictate what I wear to do it. ?
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I never knew about that, but usually changed clothes before going out to meet the public. eg shopping.
One very important formality though was greeting people. Shake hands , 'Bonjour - ca va?' etc. Before launching into the main issue of the conversation. Even when they were doing manual work they would offer their forearm instead of their soiled hand.
I like that custom, and try it here sometimes.
There was also this thing about kissing which french people do with their close friends and families. There's a whole ritual. But I never felt comfortable about it. 

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Just walking into town can take ages if we bump into people from a club we belong to and take part in various activities with 3 kisses each!

Then there are the group walks - there are often 30+ Of us - that’s a large number of kisses, plus again at the end.

A lot of them must think that ‘les anglais’ have a lot of colds as I often say I mustn’t kiss, just wave a hand at everyone.

It’s fine with friends, of course, or people from the English class, many of whom I’ve known for 10 years or so, or even the pétanque group, but all and sundry is too much.

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Idun - another memory of formalities from the old days -

When you buy a house and settle in a commune in France ingratiate yourself by taking a bottle of whisky etc to the Mairie, and introduce yourself to the Maire (or Mairesse as the case might be.)
ps I never did that. Our first Maire was a social climber, but his secretary was nice.
The second was a sweet gentle man who didn't need any bribes.

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LOL Patf, I had never heard of such a thing as taking a bottle to the Maire before I came on here, and I was rather taken aback with the very idea.

By that time we had had, well, there are some expressions one could use about putting fires out, and that is how I felt about the Maires we had had and we had quite a few. Still we did have one good one, but that was it.

If anyone had suggested we give whisky to the Maire and then we had seen the reality of what they were like, yes, I definitely would have been most upset. Devious and lying etc etc.

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We were advised by a french friend to introduce ourselves to the maire with a bottle of whiskey if a professional looking person or shortbread if he was an agriculture. We took whiskey and he was gobsmacked. So embarrassing!
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During the John Bercow fuss he was questioned by the press on the way to work and his clothing was as casual as casual could be.

Einstein summed it up well for me,

'If most of us are ashamed by of shabby clothing and shoddy furniture let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it.'

Albert Einstein
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I think it's just that people tend to feel uncomfortable when custom and convention is broken. We like our conventions, they oil the wheels of social interaction. When everyone follows social conventions we feel we're all "on the same page" and things run smoothly.

So when a person chooses to break the convention we wonder why they did it. Is it to draw attention to themselves, to make a point of showing disrespect in a non verbal way, or perhaps the person is having some kind of temporary personal crisis. And according to what message we pick up from their unconventional behaviour, we might react with disapproval, or sympathy, or embarrassment, or indulgence. For instance if the person is known to be individualistic / non conformist / unconventional, maybe a geek or mad professor type or a natural eccentric - or even just a newly arrived foreigner who isn't familiar with French customs and conventions - we don't take offence. If it's a young thug who hasn't bothered to put a tie on for his court appearance, or a sulky teenage son or daughter who turns up at their parents' posh family "do" dressed totally inappropriately, that would give out a different signal.

I take Einstein's comment as referring to people who can't afford smart clothes or good furniture, which is a completely different issue.
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There are, of course, many apocryphal tales of the scruffily dressed bloke who'd just won the lottery or the pools, turning up at the car showroom to be told by a suited-and-booted car salesman that "sir" might be in the wrong place, only to discover that "sir" probably has enough money to purchase the showroom.

Convention might be important, but convention has evolved so far, even in the recent past. Fewer and fewer companies (in the UK, at least) seem to require male employees to wear a suit daily - for example. Once upon a time, I remember finding it quite refreshing that my European peers were more casually dressed for work than I or my male UK colleagues were expected to be. I can't say I saw it as a message, just a point of difference.

Sometimes, however, it appears that the "problem", if it's perceived as such, lies more often with the more formally dressed person making a judgment about someone who is less so. Certain professions have historically expected deference, but there's perhaps more of a tendency now to feel that deference should be earned rather than expected. And perhaps also that deference doesn't always manifest itself in the form of "dressing up".
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Yep I totally agree that conventions evolve constantly, just like language, and so they should. They're a reflection of cultural changes and changing attitudes.

As for the apocryphal scruffy lottery winner who goes to a flashy car showroom looking like a tramp, all I can say is, Well what did he expect. For every nouveau riche millionaire that the salesman cold shoulders, he has probably made a correct assessment of similar scruffs as time-wasters many times over.

Historically, dress code and other status symbols had greater significance than they have now; everyone knew their place and the notion of social mobility worried people. We like to think we're OK with social mobility these days and we're too sophisticated to be "taken in" by superficialities. But we don't question police uniforms, military uniforms and decorations, nurses' uniforms, judges' robes, wearing evening dress to black tie events, etc etc etc. So yes, if you go to a formal dinner in jeans,then those who have done the "done thing" i.e. the more formally dressed people will make a judgment about someone who is less so. I don't see observing the accepted dress code for a given situation as deference to a particular person, because you can dress correctly and still speak and behave as insolently as you like to someone you don't respect. I see it more as a sign that you're willing to conform to the expectations of society in general, which most people do because they want society in general to accept them.

When I was young I used to like dressing for work as informally as I thought I could get away with; I liked to think it showed I was a free spirit and an independent thinker. So although I didn't see it at the time, it was just a different kind of dress code.
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Scruffy or not, (honest dealer or not).. I have yet to meet a notaire who does not expect to be treat with respect and called 'Maitre'.

As YCCMB said, it was usual for people to go to functions, or even just out, looking rather scruffy.  I have never quite got who buys all these amazing clothes in the shops in Chambery, Annecy, even Grenoble, and Geneva wasn't that far for us. Where do they wear them???? OR is that just another example of the class system in France and there are places where the plebs do not know of????

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"is that just another example of the class system in France and there are places where the plebs do not know of????"

I guess the international movers and shakers and jet-setters and their hangers on and wannabees keep these shops going. Obviously there are different strata of society from one extreme to the other, some spend thousands of euros at designer stores on a whim and some save up for months to afford something from Primark, some buy Bentleys and some buy Nissans, and ne'er the twain shall meet on an equal footing. Not many of us ever go to events where we're likely to rub shoulders with the likes of the Prince of Monaco, diplomats, Sarko and his mates etc but no doubt there is very a full calendar of such events where you can show off your latest fashion creation or diamond tiara if those are the circles you move in.
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Not thinking of that sort of shop, not Champs Elysee, just the sort of boutiques that have beautifully set out windows and where frocks are hundreds and hundreds of €'s, as are the shoes and bags.

There was one lady in our village who wore such things, one in 2000, the rest were in a mix of Carrefour, Kiabi, etc etc and sometimes things that looked like Emmaus had had them donated several times......and were being worn with other things that did not match. The expression used in the village was being dressed like a veuve portugaise.

continuation:

Where those with the expensive clothes socialise, I have no idea, I was never friends with the lady in question, she was rather snooty in fact that was one group of people I did not socialise with.

I did have a couple of women friends who were definitely BCBG and wore the typical style of also expensive clothes of that particular group....... as did their kids.But frankly for all a typical BCBG wardrobe is expensive, it is simply classic and not that 'special'.

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Here's one for you, ET. There's a "special" category of dress code for creatives, who form a surprisingly large percentage of the working population in London and the SE these days.

For those who have suffered and pondered over what on earth to wear when require to present in "smart casual" attire, I bring you the official dress code for functions such as the Royal Academy Summer Exhibition preview which requires attendees to dress formally or "art smart" . Don't ask, I have no clue. It's the sort of thing where you'd see Tom Courtney dressed in a Victorian gentleman-style embroidered smoking jacket and velvet beret with tassel, and Grayson Perry dressed as Big Bird.

I can pretty much guarantee, though, that you can spot an architect at any sort of function from 100 paces. Linen suit.
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^^ *LIKE* ^^

Velvet jackets used to be compulsory for male wannabee poets and writers and long skirts for females, or at least they did in the north of England. I used to go to creative writing classes and it was practically de rigeur, I actually felt obliged to buy a long skirt just to fit in ;-)

What you wear does make a statement, I don't think you can odds it.
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I've got a few long skirts too - but partly to hide my 'sparrers ankles'.
As for dressing up smart in the Gers, most of my best things were from the 90s when I was working. I wore those to go shopping etc, and found that the farming locals wore the same styles. If you shopped in the morning when the oldies were out.

In the afternoon and evening it was more the young people who wore uptodate fashion.

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If going for a job interview, you bet I'd wear smart but serious and practical!  Back in the day, I NEVER met an woman interviewee wearing trousers who got appointed.  Strange that as hardly anyone wear anything else these days?

Consultant surgeons, on the whole (and consultant physicians too, come to that) used to wear bow ties.  The explanation was that they did not wear ordinary ties because they might be bending over patients, etc and the ties would get in the way.  Seeing that they weren't actually the ones doing most of the work (and anyway they wore theatre garb when operating), I didnt think that was a valid reason.  It was purely a marker of seniority and rank and, of course, status.

I don't know what would have happened if a houseman (mostly houseman in those days) or even a registrar were to have the termerity to also sport a bow tie......I think the roof might have fallen in[:)]

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