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CDS....I did say wait. Yes you did ALBF.


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[quote user="BritinBretagne"]I don’t understand why you posted that for me. I was just pointing out a fact.[/quote]

You may have pointed out the fact that you used your passport as ID on the train, but you also said "a CdS is not proof of identity and holders will need a passport for that." which is not a fact, as evidenced in the links I posted.

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When we got our CdS we had to supply notices of impots paid (not fonc or hab but income) for 5 years .. including the declaration we had made for that year .. that should remove the second home owners as they won't have income tax returns to offer. Or at least any income to show sufficient to live here if they have to declare rental income in France for example ...

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Sorry but I'm getting confused, why would second homeowners apply for a CdS? You either want to be a French resident or a second-home owner. Up till now we have been second home-owners, but are in the process of taking up residency if the site ever opens up? We made this decision with all the financial implications it involves; so we can spend as much time in France as we wish and also can spend time in the UK. I'm of the understanding that the tax returns will start as soon as we become resident or at least possibly a short period before. Where does this five years come from? If that is the case, I've got it entirely wrong, and a lovely cottage will be going on the market as I head back to blighty
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[quote user="NickP"]Sorry but I'm getting confused, why would second homeowners apply for a CdS? You either want to be a French resident or a second-home owner. Up till now we have been second home-owners, but are in the process of taking up residency if the site ever opens up? We made this decision with all the financial implications it involves; so we can spend as much time in France as we wish and also can spend time in the UK. I'm of the understanding that the tax returns will start as soon as we become resident or at least possibly a short period before. Where does this five years come from? If that is the case, I've got it entirely wrong, and a lovely cottage will be going on the market as I head back to blighty[/quote]

You still haven't got it.

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Drayton Boy said..

"I know several holiday home owners who are going to apply for a CdS as a means of skirting the Schengen 90 day rule"

In order to do that they will have to apply for residency in France and be a second home owner in the UK. In order to do that they will have to get a mutuelle in France.

No health cover....no CDS. Which I guess they won't apply for because it is expensive.

They are not going to give these things away. I think the info that you will have to submit will be quite extensive.

So second home owners, have no chance.

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What Smeg said.

To get a CdS a holiday home owner would need to take out full health insurance as a French resident, which will likely be pretty expensive for oldies, assuming they can even get it which will depend on medical history.

Whereas if they did what long stay visitors are supposed to do and apply for a visa each year, they would simply need travel insurance which I imagine would wind up a lot cheaper even after paying the visa fee, and which it would be wise to have in any case if they can no longer use an EHIC.

Plus there are the other obligations for qualifying for a CdS, that you don't have witha visa. A visa leaves you free to come and go for as long as it's valid, whereas a non-permanent CdS is invalidated if you spend either 6 months consecutive or 10 months in total out of France during the year. If Covid doesn't go away they might not actually want or be able to spend that long in France next year.

Then there's the income tax complications. If you have a visitor visa the French taxman will not be interested in you. If you are claiming to be resident you will need to declare your income in France and almost certainly also fill in UK tax returns. After all the fun I had with HMRC last year after moving back to the UK mid year I would not willingly put myself in a dual residency situation ever again. If you are trying to live in both at the same time, where are you going to pay tax on your pension?because as a French resident you pay it in France and as a UK resident you pay it in the UK. There comes a point where telling the UK you live there and have a second home in France, and telling France you live there and have a second home in the UK, risks landing you in the doodoo.

As I see it holiday home owners have two easy options and one complicated option. Either they can do what NickP is doing and make the move. Or they can use the visa system. Or they can try to apply for a CdS without making the move, but nobody knows yet whether France will issue a CdS to a non resident holiday home owner or not and even if they do, it doesn't seem to me a very good idea.

Or, maybe they are just intending to get the card now, not bother with any of the conditions and let it lapse after 5 years without trying to renew it. That might be tempting but even then there is potentially an insurance problem because if after year 1 they take out travel insurance, would the insurer pay out on travel claims as a visitor in a country where they have arguably taken up residence?

It just seems to me yet another example of why it is always simpler to follow the set of rules that was designed to meet the needs of people in your situation, rather than try to cherry pick a different set of rules that were actually designed to meet the needs of people in a different situation.
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To get a CdS a holiday home owner would need to take out full health

insurance as a French resident, which will likely be pretty expensive

for oldies, assuming they can even get it which will depend on medical

history.

ET, this will be the first time I will have had the temerity to correct you as your knowledge of how things work in France is nothing short of phenomenal[:)]

Getting a mutuelle does NOT depend on medical history though, as you have said earlier in your post, it does depend on age.

We have had 3 changes of mutuelles in the dozen or so years we have lived here and, whilst it is true that your choice of mutuelle is greatly reduced by your advance in age, your state of health or its history has nothing to do with whether you are accepted or not.

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@BinB, EU citizens don't need a CdS because their passport is evidence that they have basically the same rights as a French person in France. Third country national do not automatically have those rights so they need a CdS to confirm exactly what rights they do have.

Probably the most obvious example is if you want to work in France. An EU passport shows that you have the automatic right to apply for jobs or set up a business. A non EU passport doesn't give you the right to work in France. So you can only take a job or set up a business if you have a CdS that specifically states that you have the right to work in France, That is the purpose of a CdS, to confirm what rights you have - maybe just the right to reside, maybe the right to live and work, there are many different types of CdS and each type gives you a specific sets of rights subject to specific conditions.

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You are absolutely right @Mint and I did not express myself well.

When I said "full health insurance" I was thinking of private insurance, not joining PUMA and getting a mutuelle. I was assuming that a second home owner would not want to join PUMA because if they're intending to remain UK residence they won't have applied for an S1 (assuming they are eligible), and as I understand it, if you apply to join PUMA as an inactif without an S1, then the process still involves obtaining confirmation from DWP that you are no longer eligible for NHS cover - which they wouldn't want to do if they want to keep the main home UK/second home France status quo.

I suppose what I'm saying is, I can't see how a holiday homer would have a carte vitale and a mutuelle, the two things seem to mutually (!) exclusive. You have to be genuinely resident before you can join PUMA. Sorry, I can't seem to express things clearly today :-(
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I thought I might start a new thread called holiday homes and residence permits but, doh, I can't actually figure out how to start a thread on this forum!

However it appears that this specific question has been raised in the Assemblée Nationale. An answer was given in June 2020 to the effect that France does not consider that the Withdrawal Agreement covers Brits who live in the UK and have a holiday home in France.

http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q15/15-28896QE.htm

"La situation des ressortissants britanniques désirant effectuer de courts séjours en France à l'issue de la période de transition, par exemple pour se rendre dans leur résidence secondaire s'ils résident à titre principal au Royaume-Uni, ne relève pas de l'accord de retrait"

So it is clear France has been alerted to this issue and has considered it. Remains to be seen what they have decided to do about it.
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[quote user="EuroTrash"]I thought I might start a new thread called holiday homes and residence permits but, doh, I can't actually figure out how to start a thread on this forum!

However it appears that this specific question has been raised in the Assemblée Nationale. An answer was given in June 2020 to the effect that France does not consider that the Withdrawal Agreement covers Brits who live in the UK and have a holiday home in France.

http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q15/15-28896QE.htm

"La situation des ressortissants britanniques désirant effectuer de courts séjours en France à l'issue de la période de transition, par exemple pour se rendre dans leur résidence secondaire s'ils résident à titre principal au Royaume-Uni, ne relève pas de l'accord de retrait"

So it is clear France has been alerted to this issue and has considered it. Remains to be seen what they have decided to do about it.[/quote]

I'm surprised such a carefully considered and precisely worded agreement could have flaws in it.

ET. The @ in your pseudo confuses the forum software. When I try to quote you I get the message "Non matching quote blocks in post" until I change the "@" for "a"

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NickP. In a way your post highlights why some second home owners believe that they can apply for a CdS to circumnavigate the Schengen 90/180 day rule. A rule that many of them have ignored in the past when they stayed in France for 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or more months a year.

You say you are in the process of taking up residence but residence starts the moment you decide to stay, it is completely different from the process of applying via the online portal for a CdS, the CdS that will give you as a British citizen the right to remain in France under the terms of the WA after the end of the year. Fulfilling residency involves a lot more than completing a French tax return, it means moving the centre of you life to France; entering the health system, registering your car, completing a tax return as a resident, accepting that, even if you have a British will, your will will be affected by French tax regulations, your right to hold ISAs and the like and even where you renew your driving licence when it expires and changing your insurances. It’s actually a big lifestyle change.

Where are you at this moment? If you are in France how long have you been here and when did you decide that you were going to be resident? If you are in the UK when are you planning to move over and how are you hoping to demonstrate that that visit is any different from the other visits that you have made in the past?

A lot of second home owners believe that they can take advantage of the generous conditions provided by the French government and apply for a CdS without actually needing to change anything. I’ve read posts from one individual who is assuring others that if the spend a minimum of 36 days in the U.K. they can become a legitimate French resident without having to be a fiscal resident here. No doubt they have similar arguments about why they won’t need to import and re-register their cars, apply for a Carte Vitale or do petty little things like speak French or handle euros.

If you are in the process of a major lifestyle change and moving your life to France good luck, if you are hoping that nothing will change too much if you apply for a CdS and complete a French tax return that will be enough, think again. I really hope it’s the former.
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[quote user="NickP"]In reply to nomoss. Got what oh wise one? If I got it I wouldn't be confused or asking for advice.[/quote]

Sorry, I'm too high up on my horse to hear you.[:D]

But what you didn't get was what lots of people here previously, and BinB just again, have tried unsuccessfully to explain to you.

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[quote user="EuroTrash"]I thought I might start a new thread called holiday homes and residence permits but, doh, I can't actually figure out how to start a thread on this forum![/quote]

At the top of the page, just above the blue banner "The Complete France Post Bag" click on "France Forum" at the beginning of the string to this topic.

Click on the forum most suitable for your new topic, then click on "Post" at the top of the topic.

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@Nomoss I don't think the WA does have flaws in it, or at least not that particular flaw.

The issue was raised by a representative who had presumably had his ear bent by Brit hol home owners. He said, These people think the WA is unfair, they didn't vote for Brexit and they don't want to lose their rights, they want to be able to keep coming and going as they please. And the answer was Tough, they can't because that is not what has been agreed between the UK and the EU.

Sorry about the arobase. I used to be just plain ET, then I couldn't access that account perhaps because I no longer had the email address I used when I created it so I couldn't reset the password, so I stuck a @ in it and made a new account. Didn't realise it would be an issue. Mea culpa.
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[quote user="EuroTrash"]I believe it WAS considered.

And there reasons for deciding what they did

i.e. the EU was not prepared to offer the privileges of EU citizenship to Brits who had never actually exercised their freedom of movement up to that point.[/quote]

I see your point[:)]

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