Frexit?

[Ken]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Part of my French family are from the Vosges and many others live on the German border.

I have brought the subject up a few times and they just look perplexed with my questions.

It is a strange relationship between the French and zee Germans. Many French do think the Germans are the master race. I wish I could put that better. Or find the word. Sometimes I think they are sacred of them.

I don't think it is the same the other way around. I think the Germans look down on the French personally. I don't think the Germans show much respect to the French.

Is that the same with the UK ?. No of course not. Apart from a few jokes.

Regarding your last point.

More French (I think I am right) live in the UK than any other EU country.

France is the biggest European investor in UK property.

In now 23 years, I have not had any animosity shown towards me for being British. In fact, as soon as they know I am British...they can't stop chatting about how much they love the UK or how their friends or sons/daughters live and work in the UK.

So your point (IMHO) is wrong.

This is about generations as well. The older generation turn their nose up at anything foreign to be fair. Apart from Germany.[/quote]

Like you I have never had any animosity shown towards me for being British. I get on tremendously well with all French people. Part, if not all of it, is because I never, ever, push my Britishness! I am a foreigner and always stress that I am a guest in France. That France and Britain have, throughout history gone to war against each other rather points to our differences. Down at our level no problem. Once it gets to government level then it is a different matter. It has to.

As for the French being the largest group of foreigners in the U.K you may be right, I don't know. What I do know is that London is the 6th or 7th largest French city By population.!!!!!!

[alittlebitfrench]

Can we agree that it is French politiciens (not the general French public) that have a problem with the UK.

French politiciens have always wanted to align France with Germany.

The question is why ?

It makes no sense.

There is more to this than meets the eye. If you know what I mean.

France needs to consider its relationship with Germany.

I have nothing against Germany BTW.

[EuroTr@sh]

Ken wrote the following post at 22/02/2021 6:33:

I can't think that kids from inner cities or anywhere else for that matter are looking at a 'potentially' bleak future because they will now have to fill out the odd form!! Probably exactly the same form I (we) had to fill out to move around Europe.

Yes ALBF the thread is to do with Frexit, so how would folks in France feel if they faced these barriers with their neighbours and basically their freedom stopped at the French border?

[cajal]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]On the last point, yes it did escape my notice - what changed with FoM in 1992? [/quote]

FoM, in 1992, now included 'goods and services'.  That then enabled agents to book bands, consisting of musicians and crew of European origin, throughout the EU on a nod and a wink and a signature on a contract.

[alittlebitfrench]

ET said.....'so how would folks in France feel if they faced these barriers with their neighbours and basically their freedom stopped at the French border?'

They would be upset like you me and everyone else.

But, who is doing the stopping ?

An unelected bunch of gangster thugs perhaps ?

I did not vote for this. Did you ? Did anyone ? Did the French, Germans, the Spanish etc etc.

The EU has been hijacked.

I am European, I can live where I like.

[EuroTr@sh]

alittlebitfrench wrote the following post at 22/02/2021 9:12:

Can we agree that it is French politiciens (not the general French public) that have a problem with the UK.

I don't think it's that they have a problem. A complex relationship if you like, but if you call complex relationships a problem then just about every country has a problem with just about every other country. Basically every country looks after its own interests. Sometimes it's in one country's interests to align with this or that other country, or group of other countries, sometimes it isn't. So there is always this flux of aligning and opposing depending on what particular issue has floated to the top. It's not like countries have best friends that they are always going to align with, and countries that they don't like and will never align with.

France and Germany play on the same team and they have a lot of shared interests. The UK is now on a different team, it's a competitor. France is going to align with Germany on certain things, rather than the UK. It doesn't mean they have a problem with the UK.

That's how it works at country level but as Ken says that is totally separate from how it works at personal level, there are cultural differences and sometimes prejudices and biases and all kinds of emotional baggage, and also like Ken says it is a generational thing too because young people have less baggage. They are going to make their own minds up based on what they find, not what their parents found. Sometimes it is simply a matter of getting to know the culture better, because natural reserve might seem like stand offishness at first, and there might be customs that you find hard to accept because it's not part of your own culture. So you can generalise up to a point but everyone's experience will be different. Some people are naturally more open minded and curious and adaptable than others, some people are I suppose more set in their ways and find it harder to be tolerant of different customs and different mindsets and meet people half way.

[alittlebitfrench]

A couple of years ago I took the kids to London.

We did the sites, the shops, the pubs and stayed in a hotel.

The majority of people we interacted with were not native British. Most were European. Half ars'ed English with a smile.

It was wonderful. Multiculturalism at its best.

Does that happen in Paris, Germany, Madrid etc etc...

No....well certainly not in France. Not in a million years.

I have said before and I will SAY AGAIN...the UK is more pro Europe than any other country in Europe.

It will always be. Brexit or no Brexit.

Peeeps are pointing their guns at the wrong country.

[EuroTr@sh]

alittlebitfrench wrote the following post at 22/02/2021 11:12:

ET said.....'so how would folks in France feel if they faced these barriers with their neighbours and basically their freedom stopped at the French border?'

They would be upset like you me and everyone else.

But, who is doing the stopping ?

An unelected bunch of gangster thugs perhaps ?

I did not vote for this. Did you ? Did nyone ? Did the French, Germans, the Spanish etc etc.

The EU has been hijacked.

I am European, I can live where I like.

ALBF, it is lovely how idealistic you are. So sweet.

But, if you want to go back to every country being separate and contolling its own borders, then that's what you will get. Borders. Immigration policies and controls. OFIIs and Priti Patels.

There is a saying, Before you take a fence down, make sure you know why it was put up in the first place. I know you don't like the EU organisation, and there are lots of things to not like about it, but it was set up for a purpose. You might think it's doing more than it was set up to do, fair enough, lobby to reform it, slim it down, but you can't just get rid of it.

Imagine a market square with no management and no rules. Anyone can set up stall and sell what they want at whatever price they want. Very soon you would have all the would-be traders fighting each other because there aren't enough pitches to go round and everyone wants the best pitches and everybody wants to sell, I don't know, ladies lingerie. It wouldn't work. You need a management to set up a fair way of allocating stalls and ensuring there is a good mix of products. Everybody hates the management committee, they are unelected gangster thugs who make people stick to the rules they've hijacked our market. But it doesn't work without them..

Or an apartment block with no rules and no management committee. The residents would be at each other's throats in no time.

In your ideal world ALBF everybody would agree on what's fair and what isn't and nobody would take liberties at other people's expense. But, it's not an ideal world.

About London. You are right, it's about as international as you can get. It's a great place for tourists, it's a great place for foreigners to move to and live in, but for the capital of England it's not very English. And that's exactly why so many people were persuaded to voted Brexit. They go to their capital city and they don't feel it belongs to them. And it's not just London that's become very multicultural. A lot of English don't like that, they feel it's gone too far and England has lost its identity. Brexit was sold to them as the only way Britain could control its borders and keep foreigners out. It was about controlling its laws as well but immigration was the issue that really struck a chord with a lot of voters.

[alittlebitfrench]

When I go to London (as an EU citizen) it belongs to me.

Like I hope it does for everyone in Europe.

That is what makes it so special. It is a European city.

I have lived in Paris 3 times. I love going to Paris for weekends away. But it is not part of the EU. It is France. I am Johnney foreigner even though I lived there longer than most French people.

So take your pick.

EU or not EU.

The UK is more pro EU than France.

You cannot dispute that fact.

[BritinBretagne]

I don’t suppose it’s worth pointing out to ALBF that the multicultural rather than international London that he loves voted a very solid remain vote. London is not typical of Britain, there your accent or the colour of your skin is accepted by one and all. That is not true of many other places in the United Kingdom. Using London’s attitude to foreigners as representative of the whole of Britain is a bit foolish.

There is no evidence that Britain is more pro EU than France, quite the opposite in fact.

[EuroTr@sh]

Yes but that is you, ALBF. Not everyone feels like that.

You used to have a problem admitting that some Brits actually want to live amongst other Brits in the Dordogne.

Now you have a problem admitting that some Brits don't like sharing their cities with foreigners. But really it's the same problem.

A lot of voters in the famous "red wall" constituencies want to slap St George flags everywhere. They don't like foreigners, some actually hate them, and they don't want them in "their" country.

France has avoided the problem by consciously keeping multi culturalism at arm's length. It insists on the French language being the official language, it visibly protects French values. So the French equivalents of red wall voters don't get ruffled.

I suppose it's because they feel threatened and insecure. There's a lot of that about in the UK. It doesn't affect you but it does affect some people.

[Ken]

Being a true cockney I had an affinity with London just like all true Londoners. I worked there until I retired and within a few years had come to live in France, that was 22 years ago. I have been back to London, indeed Britain, just once a couple of years ago.

I was staggeringly amazed at how it has changed. Are there really that many people who drink coffee now!!! I visited all of my old haunts and was surprised that I couldn't find one place staffed by a Brit. The dominant work force was east European. London has changed tremendously and it's certainly not the city I was brought up and worked in.

I did feel sad that it was now so cosmopolitain but I suppose that is the world we live in today. Back then Coppers walked the streets now you can't get one out of his squad car because he is too fat!! A Mayor Called Khan and tourists as thick as fleas on a fox's back!!

I enjoyed walking back down memory lane but I have to say that it is now too 'foreign' for me.racist, racialism, well take your pick. I do believe that unfettered immigration ruins a country.It has, I feel, ruined London for sure and I wouldn't mind betting that the French feel the same, or the Germans come to that, regarding their own countries.

[chessfou2]

Do you not watch TV or read Le Monde??!! Loads & loads of politics, for example

France 3 - dimanche en politique (preceded by dimanche en politique in your region).

C politique.

etc., etc. I think there's more on French TV than UK, but can't be sure because I don't watch much of the latter.

[alittlebitfrench]

You are wrong Ken....if I may say so.

My dad was a born and bred cockney. As you quite easily spotted on another thread. It runs in the family I guess.

He was a copper.

It would break his heart (if he was alive) to see London as it is today.

But I ask myself...why ?

I like the idea of going to Barcelona, Rome, Paris, Hamburg as a European and thinking...these are my cities.

I am European. Thease are my cities.

No one really gets that idea.

Which is a shame.

Does anyone remember The Romans ?

[EuroTr@sh]

Why do you want to feel they are "your" cities? I don't get that. Can't you just enjoy them for what they are, without having to own them?

I don't want to feel they are all "mine".

[EuroTr@sh]

cajal wrote the following post at 22/02/2021 10:25:

FoM, in 1992, now included 'goods and services'. That then enabled agents to book bands, consisting of musicians and crew of European origin, throughout the EU on a nod and a wink and a signature on a contract.

Cajal I totally missed your post earlier, I only just saw it now.

Thank you for explaining that to me, I hadn't realised free provision of services is so relatively recent.

So I suppose the argument could be that since Brits only had this right for a short time, they shouldn't have taken it for granted.

But in reality, musicians who are in their 20s now, never knew anything else. They grew up in a world where they can get an email on Wednesday from festival organisers in Barcelona saying 'one of our support groups has pulled out at the last minute, can you be here on Friday to fill in?" and they say Yes and set off. Now, they can't. And worse, the organisers will think O'Hooley and Tiddow are good, but they couldn't get here because they're UK based so it's no use asking them.

To the negotiators the loss is insignificant but to to O'Hooley and Tiddow it's a biggie.

[Ken]

Please, Your view doesn't trouble me at all. I think perhaps, through my own fault, you misunderstand what I was getting at. I too enjoy visiting the cities you have mentioned but they are definitely not my cities. Despite being a Brexit supporter I also am European, can't get away from that fact. London is the city I was born and raised in, it was my home. Barcelona et al wasn't so cannot hold the same affection for me. You may be European, as I am, but you are still English and a Londoner and can't escape that.

It is that affection for my birthplace and what is was as to why I feel sad for the changes. I have said that is the world we live in and people will feel as they want. You obviously sound as if you have no first loyalty to London, I still do and that is why I feel sad it has changed so . I have friends who also say they are 'European' in fact insist upon it before their own nationality which I find rather absurd but, people have their own views and what's wrong with that? Nothing of course!

As for the Romans, did they live next door to the Greeks at No12?

[NickP]

At the moment it's early days, things will settle down after a while. I was freelance and worked in an industry that moved very expensive equipment and crews around the world, including would you believe Europe, before the EU came into existence. Often things would be sorted and indeed carnets sought and achieved in a very short period of time. My son is a tour manager in the music business and he says yes it's more work, but it will happen as long as you approach it in the correct manner. So I think O'Hooley and co will be OK. Mind you, having heard O'Hooley and co if they didn't tour it would be a blessing. ???

[alittlebitfrench]

I really was born in the wrong century.

It is like, I am 300-400 years in front of you lot. LOL

We are talking about Europe. Wait till I get started talking about Earth.

Everyone should have free movement. It is everyones planet. That is my view.

Does anybody watch the 'The Expanse'. ? It is on Prime.

It really is the best sci fi series ever. It is mind blowing.

[EuroTr@sh]

NickP wrote the following post at 22/02/2021 14:33:

Mind you, having heard O'Hooley and co if they didn't tour it would be a blessing. ???

That's a bit gratuitously catty isn't it? OK you don't like them but a lot of people enjoy listening to them and they're well thought of in the folk world.

I do quite like them as it happens, one of them has a really lovely haunting voice (I've forgotten which is which now!), but I picked them partly because cos they're a typical example of a pair of young misicos ltrying to make a living from their talents and living on a shoestring at present, and partly cos they live a few houses away from where I used to live in another lifetime.

I'm sorry NickP, I know it was just a throwaway comment with smileys to make it funny, but it's comments like that, that are spoiling the forum for me at the moment. Why is it funny to diss people and things that you don't happen to like or agree with, I just don't get it.

[EuroTr@sh]

alittlebitfrench wrote the following post at 22/02/2021 14:58:

I really was born in the wrong century.

It is like, I am 300-400 years in front of you lot. LOL

Hmm. You sound more like a throwback to the 60s to me, when Blue Mink were singing about the world being a big melting pot.

I'm all for peace and love and harmony, I was a flower child myself don't forget, but I don't want to live in a melting pot. I love the fact that Rome is different from Amsterdam, and Paris is different from Madrid. I respect that some parts of the world don't share Western values. Diversity is great, let's keep it, but let's have tolerance as well.

I just looked at the lyrics, so hip back then but so un pc now.

Take a pinch of white man

Wrap it up in black skin

Add a touch of blue blood

And a little bitty bit of Red Indian boy

Curly Latin kinkies

Mixed with yellow Chinkees

If you lump it all together

Well, you got a recipe for a get along scene

Oh, what a beautiful dream

If it could only come true, you know, you know

What we need is a great big melting pot

Big enough to take the world and all it's got

And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more

And turn out coffee colored people by the score

Rabbis and the Friars

Vishnus and the Gurus

You got the Beatles or the Sun God, it's true

Well, it really doesn't matter what religion you choose

No, no no

Making Lady Favor

Mrs. Graceful

You know that livin' could be tasteful

We should all get together in a lovin' machine

I better call up the Queen

It's only fair that she knows, you know, you know

What we need is a great big melting pot

Big enough to take the world and all it's got

And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more

And turn out coffee colored people by the score

[alittlebitfrench]

Ken said..

'You obviously sound as if you have no first loyalty to London'

I do. I really do.

I do as well for Paris....

Paris was the first place I 'really' grew up in.

But 'my' Paris is gone.

That is life. You have to be objective.

I don't find London such a place to visit to be fair.

Paris !!!

It's gone. It really is a god awful place to go.

[NickP]

If you don't like what I post then tough, scroll on by and ignore it, but no, you want to have your say and are happy unless others disagree with you. I don't give a flying fig what you think. As for dissing others comments, pots and kettles come to mind.

[idun]

I said the following on here quite recently:

that I was always told that the french are afraid of the germans, they  respect  the swiss and they mock the belgians.

Like

Ken, I never had a problem with being english. Although I think that

both my kids had comments when they got to secondary school.

I keep wondering if the age at which people move to France and what circumstances, define a lot of the points of views.

We

were in our twenties, married no kids and no french. Quite quickly that

changed to having kids and speaking french.  Some very much

appreciated  help initially, but then we were on our own, no internet,

just had to get on with it. 

I realise that some move with families,

to work or start a business, but I often feel that the majority on

here, have moved to rural France to retire , be it early or at pension

age.

My

life and experiences are quite different to that of the latter group. And for

all we lived en campagne, we had to be within striking distance of work.

And ofcourse we had all the worries of job stability etc, and keep a

close eye on the news, because a lot of things affected us........and

then there were those strikes which made actually getting to work too

often very difficult.

At a personal level, the key I think,was school. How can I put this, so much choice of would-be friends and even enemies, although I only ended up with one of those. School gate chatting and all those meetings and assoc associated with school. And just going for it talking to folk with my awful french, which did get better, never brilliant, but a lot better.

It isn't that we didn't make friends not related to school, but my closest wonderful friends had children at my  children's maternelle/primaire.

Being the only brits in the village, well, many were curious and some quite fearful when I invited them to dinner, they were truly expecting la merde,  or a big dollop of jam on the plate[:D] They got neither.

So yes, personal experiences especially how the locals take to us. 'We' can be exactly how we want to be, but if we don't act in a way that the french appreciate, then, life in France would be very limited, and why would people make the move if they don't want to mix?

[Lehaut]

Does anybody watch the 'The Expanse'. ? It is on Prime.

Yes, utterly brilliant from the first series. Working our way slowly through the last episodes, Saturday night only and on the big screen.