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English Speaking Lawyer


Babbles
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We need to find an English speaking lawyer in The Bordeaux /Agen / Condom area, this is to resolve a dispute with an English Immobilier operating in Northern Gers / Lot & Garrone. The Immobilier turned out to be the "boyfriend" /co-habitting partner of the lady who sold it but  only acted in the vendors interest throughout and now has cost us a lot of money through his actions. PM me if anyone has had the same kind of experience as we now know this is not the first time this has happened but firstly we must find an English speaking lawyer[:(]

Post edited  by Russethouse, so that it stays within the Code of Conduct

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It is probably worth pointing out that what has happened may not necessarily be illegal in France. Although the estate agency profession is closely regulated in many ways, the regulations are concerned mainly with things like registration, qualifications, finances etc rather than ethics. Things do go on, quite commonly and openly, which would not be permitted in England. For instance, under some circumstances it is quite legal for an agent to value a house, buy it himself at a low price, do a little work, then sell it on at a profit. So, so the cosy arrangement in your case, although you say it has cost you money, may not actually be against the law.

I am pleased to see that you are looking for an independent lawyer. I'm not saying that all notaires are crooked, far from it, but it is not uncommon for some to be part of these nice little earners too.

Obviously, not knowing all the details, and not being legally qualified myself, it is impossible to give advice other than, if in doubt, do take independent professional advice. I hope somebody can recommend a lawyer.

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But is the immobilier/ "owner" allowed to lie about something and withhold information which would affect the price? Things we could see we took at face value and made a judgement on and we tried to cover ourselves with a clause suspensive but the information was not forthcoming at the final signing and we are still waiting 5 monthes later for the info (which we have now found out by our builder and someone from the Maire what we needed to know) Anyway hopefully a lawyer can help if we can find one![blink]

I hear what your saying about immobiliers buying cheap and doing up and selling on, but surely they have to be above reproach when they do sell it on.

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I do hope you get it sorted out, but not knowing all the details (and I'm not sure I really need to - best to save it for the lawyers) it does sound like the French system at its worst. Some so-called professionals are capable of what seems to be the most unethical behaviour, and as long as they are properly registered and have paid their fees, the law cannot touch them. Does the agent concerned belong to a body like FNAIM? They try, at least on the face of it, to uphold certain professional standards, although sometimes it can seem as if their first priority is to close ranks to save bringing the business into disrepute.
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Hi I am a lawyer but with UK qualfications and unfortunately not able to have representation here.  My 'law' with respect is good and is transferable here (with a period of study) but what is not good is my French language law wise at least.

It would be unwise and at a distance and on this forum to jump to conclusions and as Will says you need good independent professional advice here in France.  In so doing be prepared for a long period of time before anything happens copious visits to the Avocat's many appearances at the Tribunals and continual advices from the Avocat of his or her fees.  I am not trying to dissuade you but if you think our (UK) legal system is ponderous you have not seen anything yet..........................

You cannot compare the two systems and conventionally (although not exclusively) we in the UK use two differing Solicitors to look after the interests of both the vendor and the purchaser.  Here and with the greatest of respect of Mr and Mrs Will it is all so very different.  Your views and values are based upon experiences of the UK and after six years here and trying to impose my values and beliefs and profession upon the system I have long given up for this is France and here in France they do it their way.

However even here there are ways to get your claws into an organisation or individual be in directly or through his or her 'professional' body.  But home we have the FNAEA that is not the same as a FRICS and who are in my opinion much superior.

Again back in the UK (and we are not) there is a concept of the utmost good faith and a fiduciary  duty to one's clients.  However here it is a mute point as to whom the duty is owed.  Again we have the approach of reasonableness and whether another immobilier(estate agent) possessed of the same attributes would have acted in the same manner.  Here it is the civil code so please forgive me but I am not trying to lecture but to help and much in line with consumer protection here it is my view that you very much have to look after yourself for the system does take some time to get around to the concept that there is a wrong.  In the UK we have a law system called Tort this comes from the French and it means a wrong and a civil wrong.

Again your contract is in France? It was conducted in the French Language according to the rules of the Code Civil and you paid in euros.  Thus I think you would find it very difficult to commence action in the UK.

However in saying all of that my views are that you should outline (he or she is at least an English speaking immobilier) the basis of your complaint send it by registered mail with a signature being required.

Do not let emotions cloud judgment spell out in bullet points (is that possible) the basis of your claim and then give them say 28 days and see what the initial response is going to be. 

Of course this is a highly confidential matter and this is not the forum for a detailed outline of what has occured.  However if you think I can help any further and without any concept or thought of fees or related issues then please just pm me.  As I say I cannot act for you and would not wish so to do for that would be unethical  and would recommend that you seek appropriate advice but for the price firstly of a registered letter from the UK I would test those waters first.

rdgs

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We have spoken to the Notaire who dealt with the initial purchase who is trying to work something out between both parties but part of our issue is that the immo is blaming the Notaire for "letting us sign" we had a legally recognised translator who talked us through what was happening and we a very comfortable that both the Notaire and our translator did do their jobs corrrectly. We are currently in the process of writting to the agent through who the immo operates to see if he will sort it out, at this point we do want to have a legal representative lined up incase they all just close ranks[:@]
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I think Llwyncelyn is perfectly correct. Dealing with French people can be so frustrating at times, because so often everybody blames somebody else and will not take any responsibility themselves. As he says, the system is such that you need to look after yourself rather than trying to get retribution when things go wrong. Notaires, agents etc are so often far too cosy together for comfort and will stick up for each other. Though that does not seem to apply in this particular case.

Of course there are decent notaires, just as there are decent estate agents among the rogues. Too often British people think that because a notaire is a lawyer, enjoys an apparently high status, and the title of 'maître', they are pillars of respectability and totally trustworthy. In reality they are fonctionnaires and just as self-serving as any other French civil servant, so you cannot necessarily rely on somebody just because he/she is a notaire. You seem to have one you can trust, but not all are like that.

The more I think about this, the stronger the argument becomes for taking this outside the system and getting an independent opinion. An avocat should be able to help, or maybe a British lawyer with French knowledge and experience would be better as they would understand British expectations.

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Just a quick update the french immo who licenses the English guy has now got back to us to say he's looking into it and that he has insurance if the property was miss sold, so if we take him at his work maybe we'll see some action, or maybe he's just fobbing us off but I really hope not!
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If you are forced in the future to send or to continue to send the 'written word' please do so with International Recorded delivery and with a signature being required.

Just try to cover every eventuality.

Whilst I hear what you say and upon which you are perhaps taking a viewpoint may I suggest that the written word telephone calls and emails do not equate with face to face and eyeball to eyeball discussions.

Keep on top of developments.

Set deadlines prepare for the unexpected and my advice would be to get the Avocat at least in place for if this runs and runs you could be faced six months down the road with very little progress and then to instruct an Avocat.........................It could well be twelve months before you are even at the steps of the court.

This is based upon my experience of the UK but here you undoubtedly need to be ahead of the game.

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[:-))]We've had 2 court cases with our business in the uk, a customer fell over in our shop and thought we'd be a cash cow and our assistant manager sued us for wrongful dismissal (even though she'd stollen 30K of us) both cases we won but it was stressful and distracted us from more positive progress and took between 12 - 18 months but saying that at the end of the day we are glad we "had our day in court" because frankly somebody has to stand up against people who think they can take advantage of you as an independant business or stand up for your moral rights.

So far most of the comunication right from the start of the buying process was by email (which I've saved) or conversations which had follow up emails to cover pertinant points that were discussed so we're hoping this is evidence enough of our intentions and I intend to use that as our chosen method of comunication.

We still haven't found an Advocat thats English speaking in our area, I googled it but it mainly came up with Notaires which correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need an Advocat there was one company called Henderson Consulting (?)(in Gers)(can any 3rd party recommend them?)but looking at the website I wasn't sure if they just really dealt with the purchases, did you manage to find any others in google? I also looked on Angloinfo but again it was mainly Notaires. What do you think about using an English based lawyer who has their French qualifications? I think there is one in Manchester we could use.

The issue for us is although I go to the house every 3-4 weeks for the renovations we only go together about every 10 - 12 as moh stays to keep an eye on the business, so its a pain if anyone wants us both to go over together and could lead to even more delays and although the Manchester option could cost more per hour its easy to get to.

Anyway we're still working at it, we just feel that as tenacious people we should stand up to wrong doers for all the others who haven't the balls[:-))]!!!!!!!

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  • 4 weeks later...

In my humble opinion it's worth using a lawyer in the UK to check everything out with the immo and the notaire.

We used a French solicitor based in Plymouth who discovered one or two things that weren't quite as they should be, and she got the purchase price reduced, thereby more than earning her fee.

We also had potential purchases checked out by a maitre d'oeuvres to make sure there were no hidden problems with the structure.

You wouldn't by a house in the UK without a solicitor, so why do so in France?

If any potential purchasers want the solicitor's details, please pm me.

 

Peter

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Miss Babs,

Quote

So far most of the comunication right from the start of the buying process was by email (which I've saved) or conversations which had follow up emails to cover pertinant points that were discussed so we're hoping this is evidence enough of our intentions and I intend to use that as our chosen method of comunication.

Unquote.

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that e-mails have no force at all in French law.  I understand that all communications which you intend to rely on in future for possible legal action MUST be sent by special post called avis de reception.  This is where the recepient has to sign for receipt.  You have been told this by posters earlier in this thread, but perhaps the importance has not been emphasised.

In French law e-mails useless, recorded delivery letters essential.

Hope this helps,

David

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We are currently in discussion with the immos boss at the moment and hope that we will find a resolution, to which the emails do add gravitas, our other evidence is from what the Notaire asked him to provide which one would imagine would have some standing as a goverment official. My understanding is that if you are taking court action that you cannot email the facts to them and all notificication has to be done by signed for post but emails can still be used.

Llwyncelyn, your pretty clued up about this kind of thing could you PM, as I would love your opinion

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