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Making the move - what assistance is there?


josa
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Hi - I posted earlier about looking at my options after losing my job at 52 with no other prospects in the pipeline and was thinking about renting my house in the UK, moving to my Barn in France and doing some work there on-line.

Having considered the very good advice from this forum I believe that is not going to be viable, so I am looking at another view, which whilst more radical, could well be the way forward for me.

We own our house outright in the UK - it is a smallholding, ie a 3 bedroom bungalow, partially modernised, with about 4 to 4.5 acres of mixed land (Scrub, grass and woods), in Essex. The house near us, being the same size bungalow but newly built has just been sold for £750K and whilst it is perhaps a better house, we had more land - I reckon at the very least we should be able to sell for £600K. We have no debts but no savings either.

We would need to spend about £50K in France to bring the barn up to living standard, so ending up with at least £500K to last the rest of our lives. I think this is a good figure - better than many and I feel quite lucky despite the kick in the teeth I feel at the moment over losing my job.

My question is - I know there is a wealth of advice as to what to do if I go through this and other forums (Fora??) but is there any company or advisor that I could use to assist with all the necessary matters  -ie sorting out the health care, bank accounts, and no doubt a hundred other things to do to allow us to go into early retirement in France?

By the way - if there isn't - I see an opportunity for someone on this forum - if only in producing a simple "How To" check-list and advice pamphlet.

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Even with no S1 cover (and you would probably have a bit), then you only need to find 5 years' private health cover before you'll be able to join the French system - then it's 8% of your income until one of you reaches UK state retirement age.  You'll also need either top-up insurance until you drop dead, or some contingency to cover the costs not paid for by the state. I cannot remember from your previous posts whether or not you and/or your o/h had any pre-exising conditions to prevent you from getting such care because if that is the case then I'd say don't even think about it because a health crisis could eat up all your funds if you have to pay up out of your capital.

My feeling about financial advisors and accountants is that even if they can give you the best advice on how to acheive the ultimate return on your capital - there are very few of them who truly understand the healthcare implications for non-French Europeans so I'd put this issue first on your list.  Be sure you can afford it  (because without PHI or other cover from the UK you are not allowed to live here without work), then worry about where the rest of your income will come from.

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Hi Josa, there are LOADS of factsheets and 'guides' available, I think that last thing needed is one more. Expat forums and newspapers do them, financial advisers do them, property services do them, etc, people have written whole books on the subject. Whether they are all accurate and up to date is another matter. There can be no definitive checklist beyond the most basic requirements and it would be potetially dangerous to try and produce one because everyone's circumstances are different. Same goes for companies/individuals who offer hand holding services, there are LOADS of them and some are good and some are not. At the end of the day setting up a bank account and getting a few quotes for health insurance is not exactly rocket science, a lot of companies have English speakers and helplines. If you can find out the facts for yourself you will understand what is going on round you and you will be more in control of your new life than if you paid someone to build you a little cocoon to live in. You will be able to fit the jigsaw together for yourself, see the whole picture and work out what your different options are rather than blindly following someone else's advice. For instance, I don't know what was said in the previous thread that discouraged you from starting a business but probably it was the cotisations aspect. However you may decide that if you are going to live here anyway it may make more sense to start the business after all rather than be 'inactif'. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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My wife and I came over July last year.I am 63 & o/h younger.My E106 runs out 31st Dec so I have got PMI which has cost me over 3000 euros for 1 year(both of us).I will need PMI until I am 65.

I have been told that France is going to backtrack on the health policy regarding ex pats.But I think it will be too late for me.

I have no regrets at all about living here.
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[quote user="Joe"]. I have been told that France is going to backtrack on the health policy regarding ex pats..[/quote]Let me just clarify this comment for the o/p.  What has happened so far is that the European Commission has launched an enquiry into the French government's stance on the free movement principle (which is what allowed them to exclude non-French european early-retirees from the health system) as it discriminates against the sick (those who cannot get PHI because they have conditions which insurers will not cover).   I don't want to go over all this in detail as it is complicated, but it is explained on our website.  The French government has, in actual fact, strongly denied that it will change its policy but the Commission may of course force its hand - eventually. 

But if I were moving here I would not rely on the Commission deciding in my favour within the timescales we are talking about for the o/p.  I would never try to discourage anybody from moving over, it can be done and for some it is worth it, but given how much of a struggle we had just retaining rights for existing residents, I would not take anything for granted.  If, as with Joe, it's just a question of finding some money to pay for private health insurance then that is fine, but if you have any health problems which cannot be covered, I would be cautious.

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So reading this correctly, if we moved over at 52 (say 53) I would have to find 12 years @ roughly 3000 Euros per year? - ie we would have to include in our budget a further 36,000 euros?. Neither of us have any ongoing/pre-existing health care issues.

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No, Josa, after 5 years you have to be treated as a French citizen is.  You may also have some e-form cover left over from your employment as you get up to 30 months paid for by the UK from the date you (or your o/h) stopped work.  Thus you have to fund the gap but anyway, 5 years max.[:)]

This gives you a ROUGH IDEA of what it might cost you.  I have no connection with these people but they do have the advantage that they are up front with their pricing, hence I quote them.  It is not a recommendation, just a pointer.

Please have a good read of our website, as there are possible implications in taking out a minimum cover policy (such as the Hospital version quoted) as they are not up to the standard which the French government requires and may jeapordise your chances of getting into the French system once the 5 years are up.  It also explains how the French system works and what it will cost you when the time comes.

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If you have or had private health care with your job it's sometimes possible to continue this as a private individual after you have left. You would need to talk to the provider to get a quote.

Depending on the level of cover it provided, and if you have any pre-existing conditions which might make alternative private cover unobtainable later on, whilst it might seem a waste of money to keep it up for the period you were covered by an E106 when that runs out it could prove invaluable until you had got your 5 years in. It would also act as an insurance against any serious illness you were unlucky enough to develop whilst you were under the E106.

I think Coops has a link to a site which specifies the scope which private insurance should cover to qualify you for health cover after 5 years.

Note: E106 cover is calculated from when you actually stop work so time is of the essence to get the maximum out of it.

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Sorry, I'm going to confuse you further!

Once you have moved over, if you develop a condition which a private insurer will not cover, then you can apply to join the French system under what are known as the "Accident de Vie" provisions, thus some of ANO's caveats may not apply.  However, I don't actually know of anybody who's applied so how it works in practice is still a mystery and could take a bit of a tussle with the authorities if your local office has not dealt with such a thing before (a common hurdle in dealing with French bureaucracy!)  But with persistance, the provisions should protect you should you develop a serious illness once you move - they do not protect you if  you had the condition before taking up residence however but you seem to be OK on that score.

Here's a list of the insurance cover requirements:

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/insurance/insurance_requirements.htm

and in its original form

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Out of interest, if you were involved in, say a traffic accident, and did not have health cover, would you still be treated - ie I know they would likely send you the bill (not sure what next if you couldn't pay), but surely they would not refuse treatment in an emergency? I hasten to repeat - this is only for interest - I would not take such a risk.

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[quote user="josa"]Out of interest, if you were involved in, say a traffic accident, and did not have health cover, would you still be treated - ie I know they would likely send you the bill (not sure what next if you couldn't pay), but surely they would not refuse treatment in an emergency? I hasten to repeat - this is only for interest - I would not take such a risk.
[/quote]No, like all doctors they have taken the oath.  I was carted off unconscious in a helicopter from the scene of an accident and had had a 9 hour op' before my o/h had turned up and proved my entitlement.  Nobody is left to die - as well I know.
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Even as I posted I knew it would be close to home for you Coops - although we have never met, and I don't post regularly, I do spend long hours on here and followed your recovery closely - so pleased to have you back on here - I know I speak for hundreds of silent readers.

best wishes for 2011.

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[quote user="Joe"]Sorry,I should clarify my insurance.It covers 100% of hospitalisation.God forbid if we need to go to hospital we are covered.[/quote]Joe, in fact because you are only a year or two away from your E121 (S1 now), then the level of cover is less critical for you than for Josa, as you don't have to argue your way into the French system after 5 years.  The worry about having less than full cover (as per the French regs I linked to) is that you might not be deemed to have fulfilled the conditions required for joining CMU when the 5 years are up.  Thus the level of cover for you is only important in terms of what you are left to pay for out of your own pocket.  For Josa it has wider implications.

Josa, thank you for your kind thoughts.[:)]  Joyeuses Fetes to you too.

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Other people are far more qualified than me to go on about health costs - but to get partly back to your original question.

Taking the simple assumptions that you make a 2% return on your investment pot after tax (and as this will be pretty much your only income, tax shouldnt be huge) and that you receive £8,000 pa married pension from aged 66.

If you draw £25,000 per annum to live on, your pot will last till you are about 86, after that you would need to survive on the £8k pa pension.

If you draw £20,000 per annum to live on you will still have over £100,000 left when you reach 100.

If you draw £22,000 to live on your pot should see you to your 100th birthday.

If you start drawing at £20,000 pa and increase it by 3% each year to cover cost of living your pot will last till approx 82 years of age.

Lots of variables but it does show how small annual changes make a huge difference.  The big question is can you live in France on £20,000 pa (net)?

 

 

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Further to Stan's response, a lot depends on what happens to inflation over the next thirty years.

Also you need to take into account the currency risk, as the track record of the £ over the last thirty years hardly inspires confidence.

Personally, I think 52 is too young to retire if you are fit and healthy, and the risk is that once you have completed your renovation job, you will be bored out of your brains, unless you have something to keep you occupied!
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[quote user="Sprogster"]Further to Stan's response, a lot depends on what happens to inflation over the next thirty years. Also you need to take into account the currency risk, as the track record of the £ over the last thirty years hardly inspires confidence. Personally, I think 52 is too young to retire if you are fit and healthy, and the risk is that once you have completed your renovation job, you will be bored out of your brains, unless you have something to keep you occupied![/quote]

Wise words especially the last bit, the bars are littered with them, not a pleasant sight.

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[quote user="Sprogster"]Personally, I think 52 is too young to retire if you are fit and healthy, and the risk is that once you have completed your renovation job, you will be bored out of your brains, unless you have something to keep you occupied![/quote]I think having £500k in the bank might go some way to assuaging ones boredom, it certainly would mine, but then it's not something I'm given to, boredom that is not £500k in the bank! You are right though, it should be a consideration. Given that sort of money plus property could well put into French wealth tax territory too, something else to think about.

If you want to play around with numbers there are some useful calculators to help you here:  http://www.invidion.co.uk

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Wow - tons of stuff to think about. I am worried about being bored, but if I stay in the UK without a job I would think the same thing applies  - I could be bored in the UK with no money, or bored in France with perhaps enough money to get by.

Just been to the Citizens Advice Bureau and found out that benefits are not enough to live on - I have very little outgoings, but seem to read in the Daily Mail (when I pick up a copy of the rag) that there are thousands of immigrants coming here for our welfare system - well they are either entitled to a lot more that I am, for some strange reason, or the DM lies!!

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IMHO, although I know that you have been somewhat put off by the idea of setting up some sort of business, because of the complicated and  costly tax and cotisations, there is nothing to stop you giving something a go if you do get bored, is there?  Even if it only added 5-10k a year to your income, it would keep you busy and more comfortable to boot.

The DM lie?  Heaven forfend.

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