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'Black' working.


Chris Head
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Woolybanana said:

"Unfortunately Angry Aly who metamorphosed from Charlotte3, whatever rigid system you are in and are pleading for, I feel it is a thing of the past or will be very shortly. France has to change and fast if it is not going to atrophy even more. Rigidity is out, flexibility is in. There are no guaranteed rice bowls any more, but hard work will be its own reward. But then, I'm sure you have a full order book as do most of the people round here as far as I can see. So perhaps you might live and let live."

 

The rigid system I am in is called employment, so I doubt if it will soon be a thing of the past!

As an employee I don't prsonally have an order book, but our firm has 2 years of work on our books at the moment.

It's not a quaestion of live and let live. I wasn't allowed to register as a painter and decorator. I didn't find the first loophole in the law and dive headlong into it, I found a way to do what I am QUALIFIED to do legally. That's what this is all about, BEING QUALFIED, and doing the legal and decent thing, nothing else.

(I find it acutely embarrassing when we do work at British clients houses and meet a procession of British "black" workers coming and going. This is invariably accompanied by loads of excuses from the client as to why s/he is employing them rather than a legitimate worker. Of course my French colleagues see all this and it only serves to widen the gap between our two countries.)

My colleagues just can't understand why les Anglais can't just do what they are qualified to do. I can't either, perhaps I've become more French than I realised!

Aly

 

 

 

 

 

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Where the end result of a skilled tradespersons work might possibly cause injury or death or damage to proprty then I believe they should be heavily regulated to protect the consumer, especially in the growing culture of litigation here.

I also believe less skilled trades should have more flexibility to cast their income net wider than they have at the moment.

I personally have a variety of skilled and unskilled trades and it pees me off that I could be in trouble for doing something "simple" that I am qualified & experienced to do but unregistered for because of the complexities of the system here ...so starting today I'm taking on the fonctionnaires, fuck 'em. Quite simply this involves going to to the departments that might control me in the future and telling them who I am and what I'm going to do. I honestly don't believe that I will be controlled for landsaping, tree felling/surgery or cosmetic interior works as they are loosely connected to what is on my regitration. For example I have the right to climb a 25 metre tree and carve it into a totem but not to carry out remedial surgery on it; I'm qualified for tree surgery but not for sculpture...I can build a kitchen but not install it...put a bench in a garden but not prepare the ground where the bench is to be situated: If I want to to spend a few days brushcutting, fencing, landscaping felling etc then I'd be in trouble for it so I'm just going to do put the ball in the hands of the beaurocrats and let them run with it....all I want to do is live simply and pay my way. Unfortunately there are ears and eyes everywhere and more than a few folk here who would delight in shopping me to the authorities (if they could string more than three words together in French) so attack is defence at the moment.

It'll be a helluva scrap but diversity is vital to folk like me, the farmers will find that out when their grants are removed, then the authorities are gonna have trouble keeping tabs on a whole new black economy!

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[quote user="Chris Head"]

Unfortunately there are ears and eyes everywhere and more than a few folk here who would delight in shopping me to the authorities (if they could string more than three words together in French) so attack is defence at the moment.[/quote]Have you seem the film "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" Chris. A few copies dropped through letterboxes perhaps [;-)]

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[quote user="Chris Head"]

Where the end result of a skilled tradespersons work might possibly cause injury or death or damage to property then I believe they should be heavily regulated to protect the consumer, especially in the growing culture of litigation here.

[/quote]

I totally agree, the restrictions should apply where these is some real risk, the protection should be for the consumer not to encourage the mindset of 'not my job, not my problem' which is the effect it is having.  I see this in all walks of French life, they see lines of division which stop them from being responsive to client need.  Ever heard a French person say, that's not my area but let me see if I can help you? '   

Panda

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If I could widen the debate a bit, what surprises me in France is that while many of the skilled trades mentioned so far in this discussion are highly regulated, when it comes to the so-called 'professions libérales' there appears to be a raft of totally un-regulated occupations that it my view could cause more damage than, say, a badly applied coat of paint or a leaking water tap. I give some examples taken from a book called 'Créer son activitié en solo' by Véronique Chambaud. Included in her list of unregulated activities are the following (out of nearly 300 suggestions):

Financial analyst - arbitrator - astrologer (!) - chiropractor - coach - family counsellor - patent expert - business advisor (all types) - financial advisor (all types) - image consultant - computer expert - recruitment advisor - security consultant - interior designer - trainer - geologist - graphologist (someone's career could depend on your decision!) - mountain guide - consulting engineer (!) - construction overseer - masseur - naturopath - psycho-analyst - reflexologist - sexual therapist - sophrologist - clayvoyant.

I have taken a widen selection from the list but I suggest that any or all of the above could seriously affect your phsycial, psychological or material wellbeing if not properly qualified.

P-D de Rouffignac

 

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[quote user="woolybanana"]

Being qualified and legal (French or otherwise) is not a guarantee of good work.

[/quote]

We used a properly registered artisan, spoke to other clients, looked at work already done etc etc...and, still, the quality of the work done for us was terrible (the bill was not insignificant - 25,00 Euro +).  Most now needs to be redone.  The artisan had appropriate insurance (we have a copy) but, for us, its not worth the paper its written on because we would never let this guy loose in our house again.  Ironically my brother-in-law (fully qualified and experienced english tradesman) had offered to do the work in exchange for a free holiday but we thought we should 'do it properly' - particularly bearing in mind the deductibility of the works from any future french capital gains tax and all the scaremongering on here and other forums about the works being 'ripped out'.  To be honest it would have been cheaper to have taken the risk;  had my b-i-l do the work and forfeited a tax deduction.  In the end we are paying twice over.

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[quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]

- mountain guide -

[/quote]

Actually 'mountain guide' is one of those professions that only individuals with a french qualification are allowed to practice - regardless of your international qualifications / experience.  The issue has been taken up by the Association of International Mountain Leaders on behalf of its members.

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Re scooby's point (mountain guide). I think that illustrates part of the problem. As the book I quoted points out, you can call yourself an 'expert in....' or 'consultant in.......' virtually any sphere of activity, without licensing, registration or proof of qualifications. To be fair, the book does add that your success or failure in any domain will ultimately depend on how good you are it.

I am particularly interested in 'counselling' in France (I trained correctly for three years in the UK as something to do in my eventual old age) but the French do not understand the word, preferring 'psychotherapist'. But at the moment this term can be used by anyone (!) although some of the medical professions (psychiatrists etc) are petitioning to have the word restricted to certain qualified practitioners only. The more general point I have been trying to make is that the authorities in France are over-the-top when it comes to regulating skilled trades but there are enormous gaps in the controls over many other occupations, where incompetence could cause harm.

P-D de Rouffignac

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It is odd, P-D, that so many of these "professions" you list, are "medically" based - frightening really.  My dear old Mum, who is a qualified physio, is very vocal on the subject of the various "qualifications" for those whom she would dismissively call "quacks." She makes a similar point to you, in that the problem is that anybody who does not really know what they are doing, can in fact inflict long-term harm, even though they may apparently provide short-term relief.

On the subject of councellors and phychowhatevers, I could tell you a tragic story about a close family member for whom interference from an unqualified person of this sort caused irrevocable damage.  But the details are not for this forum. 

Suffice it to say, where your health is concerned, be sure to find out who you are really dealing with when you seek help.

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[quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]

Financial analyst - arbitrator - astrologer (!) - chiropractor - coach - family counsellor - patent expert - business advisor (all types) - financial advisor (all types) - image consultant - computer expert - recruitment advisor - security consultant - interior designer - trainer - geologist - graphologist (someone's career could depend on your decision!) - mountain guide - consulting engineer (!) - construction overseer - masseur - naturopath - psycho-analyst - reflexologist - sexual therapist - sophrologist - clayvoyant.

[/quote]

So for all you guys affected by the CMU changes, which of these profession libre above are you going to choose to register as (no certification, no course required) in order to get back into the system.  I see you Coops as an Image Consultant but I bet a few more might opt for Sexual Therapist (WB) !!!

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Hey, you're not "Mr. Whiplash" are you Chris?  

This all seems a bit of a joke, like insisting everybody has a Job Title.   Have France called in the management consultants and if so I guess this would be another one for the list.   I could do this one, wave my certificates about and qualify yee ha [:D]

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[quote user="Framboise"]This all seems a bit of a joke......[/quote]It would be if it wasn't such a debilitating influence. It smacks of the strict demarcation which existed in UK last century.

Specially for you Chris:

Hit me, hit me, begged the masochist, no said the sadist.........[:D]

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