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Does anyone use bi-lingual lawyers ?


caroline
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Hello

I am hoping to buy a house in France, for the first time, and I have got the first contract papers through. I am learning about the process as I go along, and have at the moment a problem because I have to sell my house here first, before being able to complete - although the deposit is not a problem. So I was wondering if anyone uses bi-lingual lawyers who specialise in French property to help them to negotiate, and to unravel any snags ?

many thanks for your comments

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[quote user="caroline"]

 So I was wondering if anyone uses bi-lingual lawyers who specialise in French property to help them to negotiate, and to unravel any snags ?

[/quote]

Yes we did. Waste of time and money in our case - they caused a snag that might have been a showstopper - but don't allow our bad experience to colour your view. As with estate agents and politicians - there might be a good, live one somewhere.

John

not

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Clearly everyone's experience is different but I use a French solicitor in an English practice.  I have been on the point of buying a couple of times now but various things have cropped up to prevent me going ahead ( none of them down to my solicitor I might add).  I have found their input and knowledge invaluable and wouldn't consider purchasing without using them.  I'll pm you their details if you would like me to.
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I'm reading between the lines here and and also playing devils advocate so please both excuse and correct me if I'm wrong but:-

You have entered into an agreement to buy and signed a Compromis but don't have the funds to complete until your UK property is sold, yes ?

Did you put this into the Compromis as a "clause suspensive" ?

If YES then you're probably OK, although I'd be rather surprised if your seller agreed to such an open ended clause.

If NO then you could very soon find yourself in the merd forfeiting your deposit.

If the latter and you are within your 7 day cooling off period, personally I would seriously consider formally withdrawing right now whilst you can and re-negotiating the deal when you know you are in a position to go through with it., but that's only my opinion [Www]

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

No I havent signed anything, so that's not a problem - I just want to be able to sign and was hoping they would put in a clause about selling a house first - but things have since moved on, and I am now wondering how to transfer money, and if a bi-lingual lawyer would save me his fees by knowing all the ins and outs !

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" if a bi-lingual lawyer would save me his fees by knowing all the ins and outs !"

 If you don't mind me asking, what fees are you going to save given that Notaires fees are to a fixed scale of charges and include taxes? 

All you could save is a reduction in the Agents fees.  Why not ask if the Notaire has an English speaker or does translations of the contract documents, they have a duty to make sure that you understand what you ar signing.

 IMHO if you get another lawyer in,  all it will do is cost you a lot of money, not save any.

 

EDIT for the best ways of transferring money do a search, it has been discussed many many times

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would offer a word of advice in that there are many "french property legal specialists" or "French legal consultants" out there who are not qualified in French law. Some are based in the UK where they should really be registered with the UK Law Society.

For them to be any good, you must make sure that they are qualified in France and registered. Registration is indeed compulsory to practise French Law as a French lawyer, but some people purporting to be "French lawyers" are registered neither in France or the Country where they are established!

Some people are happy to just have to advice of a legal specialist but in any transaction relating to property, remember this is likely to be a large amount of money and wherever you buy, in France, the UK or wherever, you should seek advice from a qualified specialist. They're there to help you and also to work for you, answer your questions and ensure that your transaction is watertight.

Notaries are another subject and many can't be bothered to do their job properly. Try suing a notary! it will take a long time... Very rarely will a notary do any proactive work for a client (and if yours has they are one of a rare breed) however if you ask them specific questions then they will probably give you the information. A bit daft really because it means you'd have to know what to ask!

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The (French) immobilier we bought from advised us on what to put in the contract (the need for a mortgage in our case) and went through it all with us to make sure we understood before we signed the Comprise de Vente. Have you spoken to yours to see if they can similarly help you?

As Ernie said, though, I would be very suprised if the vendor was prepared to wait for completion of a house sale in the UK, so please be careful before signing and finding you can't complete the purchase on time.

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We contacted a dual qualified (UK and France) bilingual French avocat when we purchased our house.  There was a flat fee of 950 euros.  We were impressed with their service and they did help us - not sure if the work made that much of a difference to the purchase in the end but they were there, they did translate, they did make some additions and they did keep in touch and deal on our behalf whilst we were in the UK.  I think more than anything else we bought peace of mind. 

I've pm'd you the contact details and would certainly recommend them.

Good luck with the purchase [:)]

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French and British systems are quite different and French system does not really use Lawyers to carry out a transaction as the British systems does.  The Notaire really acts for neither party as sits in the middle acting independently.  Sometimes people get it into their head they will use "their own Notaire" and the two Noriares split the fees - though personally I cannot see how having two independent people will be any different except to complicate things and increase the likelihood of something falling between the cracks.

As far as using a British Lawyer - I think all they can do is to act as a translator and maybe explain the French house buying process to you.  As far as I know, Lawyers would only get involved in a French property transaction when something has gone wrong (e.g. somebody refusing to complete, etc.).  They are not involved in a normal transaction.  As far as explaining the process and translating then sounds like your agent is up to the task.  When you go to sign the final purchase contract you would normally need somebody to translate if your French is not up to it (and the Notaire does not speak English) as I believe the Notaire has a responsibility to ensure that everybody understands what they are signing (which is why it is not a 2 minute process).

Obviously different sellers have different requirements but from my very limited experience I would be surprised if a French seller would be happy with accepting a "complete when I have sold my house" condition.  More likely to agree in principle then start the paperwork when you are in a position to proceed.  As I understand it the seller has to pay for and provide several reports that form part of the CdV (initial agreement to buy and that once these are compiled they have a limited life.  Also, what if it took you 5 years to sell your house.  The seller is contractually committed to selling to you at an already agreed price, etc.

But then I am no expert in this - above is my understanding.

Ian
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Apologies for hijacking your post Caroline, but I am considering buying a barn in the Dordogne and thinking about instructing a UK based solicitor to assist.  I was wondering if virginia.c and pale pink specs could pm me with the details of the solicitors thay have used?

Many thanks!

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"but I am considering buying a barn in the Dordogne and thinking about instructing a UK based solicitor to assist" 

Why?  Read Deimos's post and try to understand the French system.  Few if any UK solicitors are even qualified to act in France and you really do not need one.

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I agree with Deimos and Ron in that the house buying process is different in France.  I found it to be simple and straightforward -  but then again, I speak French.

If you don't speak French, then (like all things in France) you are at an immediate disadvantage, so whilst hiring a French speaking agent/advocat to act on your behalf may be regarded by some as an unnecessary additional expense, in some cases, it's probably worth it.

 

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We do not speak adequate French so we used an English firm who had a native French junior partner.

Although we bought through an English agent and our Notaire spoke English (some might disagree on the point !) there were a couple of issues over a servitude that we wanted to fully understand so in truth it was as much a translation service as anything.

Was it worth it ?

Debateable:

Although it did give us peace of mind, in hindsight, probably not and if we were doing it over again I'd probably just pay for a competant or professional translator to translate the documents for us.

As SD says, I think language is the crux of it. If you can read and understand what's being presented to you and there are no major legal issues, such as servitudes or other disputes etc., then it's a fairly straightforward procedure which shouldn't really require the expense of independant advice.

Ultimately though whatever makes you feel at ease is right for you [;-)]

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I think it depends on what kind of 'advice' you are seeking. Anyone - UK solicitor, second notaire etc - who is remote from the transaction, geographically or through language, can at best only read through the documents provided by the French notaire in charge of the transaction. This is no way to advise a buyer whether the property has been valued correctly, there are possible planning consents in the pipeline, there are noisy neighbours/works/anticipated building projects nearby etc etc. Buyers are better off listening to their French immobilier (yes, there are honest ones around and in my region two firms that have been in business for 50 years) and the notaire on the ground (again in my region the notarial firm of five partners are now the grandchildren of the original founders and have attended meetings with me at the mairie and planning departments, as well as face to face with the property seller). Best to understand and make use of the French system - it is there to protect you.

P-D de Rouffignac

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Sorry P-D, but 99% of forum users are just too cynical to acccept that an agent might be honest and offer impartial advice, putting greater store in getting a good reputation with personal recommendations and repeat business as a result, rather than making a fast few euros in commission. The skill in the job is matching the right buyers to the house - no use selling somebody who wants peace and quiet a house next to a motorway interchange, but it could be perfect for those who want good communications or to attract B&B passing trade. Unfortunately - and this may be an even more controversial remark - agents on commission only are more likely to swallow their pride in order to eat that month, whereas a salaried negotiator, even on a tiny salary, doesn't have the same pressure.

As far as English lawyers are concerned they may not be necessary - in some cases they are totally useless - but if they give peace of mind to a nervous buyer they can be a good investment. And there is always the chance that they may spot a mistake by a notaire, in which case they will more than earn their fee.

 

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