no name on a war memorial

[la-vie-en-rose]

Our local war memorial lists the names of the dead from the Ist World War - but there is a gap at a particular place with just some crosses.  It would be some-one with a name starting with Pi - Ra, and there is no other clue.

Can anyone tell me what this means - is it a deserter?

[woolybananasbrother]

Love to know more though. Where is that please vie en rose?

[Dick Smith]

There were so many dead that the memorials were sometimes inaccurate; and there was also the question of where a man would be commemorated - where he was born, where he lived or where his family lived. Perhaps in this case a name has been removed for that reason.

The French army executed a large number of men in the course of WW1 (especially over the mutiny of 1916) but I think they were included on memorials (unlike Great Britain) - if you want I can try to find out for you.

Edit - I have asked the question on a very distinguished WW1 discussion list - if I get any info I will post it here. It would help to know where the memorial is situated.

[la-vie-en-rose]

Thanks Dick.

The memorial is at Le Fousseret, in the Haute Garonne (31).

The name hasn't been edited out - it was never there - just the blank with 3 crosses.

I'll send a photo - we would love to know more about what it means, so your researches would be welcome.

My husband is thinking of doing some further research himself, and would also like to know more about the eminent WW1 discussion list - perhaps you could let us know?  (He has a Doctorate in Social and Economic History, so it would be more than idle interest - but only once the grass has stopped growing!)

[Dick Smith]

Of course - I'll PM you.

[Callie]

During WWI, some French were shot randomly on a trumped up cowardice charge "as an example to others".  It took years before this was admitted publicly and some of those shot were "pardoned".

Finding a good book in English about the occupation has been difficult.  But I have just come across one that is absolutely BRILLIANT :  Voices from the dark years: The Truth  about Occupied France 1940-1945 by Douglas Boyd. 

Has anyone else noticed how you see a totally different perspective on both wars when you live here in France ?

[Dick Smith]

Do you mean the Algerian unit that was 'decimated' in 1914 - i.e. every tenth man was shot? They had refused to fight, essentially mutiny, which was a capital offence at the time.

About 600 men were executed in WW1  by the French, mostly for cowardice, but also for other crimes such as murder, rape, desertion and mutiny. The number of mutineers executed in the 1917 'collective indiscipline' was officially about 55.

This compares to 306 for Empire forces and 48 for Germany.

Have you seen the film 'Paths of Glory' which centres on this issue?

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Callie"]During WWI, some French were shot randomly on a trumped up cowardice charge "as an example to others".  It took years before this was admitted publicly and some of those shot were "pardoned".

Finding a good book in English about the occupation has been difficult.  But I have just come across one that is absolutely BRILLIANT :  Voices from the dark years: The Truth  about Occupied France 1940-1945 by Douglas Boyd. 

Has anyone else noticed how you see a totally different perspective on both wars when you live here in France ?
[/quote]

I have a book called 'The Unfree French' by Richard Vinen in my reading queue, it's about 'Life under the occupation'. I'll let you know if it's any good

 

 

[Pierre ZFP]

Is   THIS   the memorial?  75 names on it, I couldn't see mention of crosses and only one name starting 'RA'

and HERE is an old postcard of the same thing.

Might be a place to start looking or maybe email the owner of the site?

[Cat]

I'm guessing that the OP meant that the xxxx name was between a name starting with Pi and one starting with Ra, perhaps signifying that the name starts within that range?

[Dick Smith]

Can't tell much from the pictures, but does the postcard show the memorial looking fairly knocked about? Or am I imagining it?

Perhaps the local office de tourisme, or even the mairie might know, or have directions to someone who does.

[Cat]

Or failing that, direct a few questions towards the oldest locals, perhaps at the next Armistice day memorial?  Village history is never forgotten, even if most don't like to speak about it.

I know that 2 locals were executed here in our village, after the liberation, for denouncing people to the gestapo. No one ever mentions it, largely because the descendants of those killed still live here.  But once you start asking (tactful) questions...

 

[Pierre ZFP]

[quote user="Cat"]I'm guessing that the OP meant that the xxxx name was between a name starting with Pi and one starting with Ra, perhaps signifying that the name starts within that range?[/quote]

The name before Raphanel is Péchou so nothing starting with 'Pi'

With the 2 photos together you can see that the memorial has had quite a makeover at some point.

[IMG]http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb233/Pierrezfp/31193-le-fousseret.jpg[/IMG]

 

[IMG]http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb233/Pierrezfp/31-495lefousseret.jpg[/IMG]

 

[Cat]

[quote user="Callie"]Has anyone else noticed how you see a totally different perspective on both wars when you live here in France ?
[/quote]

When I lived in the UK it was in a large town where the names on the war monuments meant next to nothing to me. Here though, every year, when they read out the names of those lost in the wars, I hear the surnames of so many families that I know, and I think of their fathers, uncles, grandfathers, or even grandmothers (there are female names too, resistance mostly).  And when there are two or three people with the same surname mentioned, and I imagine the pain of someone losing so many members of the same family, it never fails to bring a tear to my eye, in fact I'm a bit misty-eyed just typing this now.

It really brings home the human element, and the real cost of war.

[la-vie-en-rose]

Hi

Yes that's the memorial - I'll try to post a close-up of the missing name tomorrow.

Excellent responses from all - thanks so much.

[Russethouse]

It really brings home the human element, and the real cost of war

That's interesting Cat, at present I am reading " Our Longest Days" which is the diaries kept by ordinary people for the Mass Observation project. In the part I read last night Nella Last wrote that she cannot understand how the county and the economy can ever recover from the loss of so many men, she forsaw the effects carrying on through generation after generation.....

[woolybananasbrother]

She was right too.

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

It really brings home the human element, and the real cost of war

That's interesting Cat, at present I am reading " Our Longest Days" which is the diaries kept by ordinary people for the Mass Observation project. In the part I read last night Nella Last wrote that she cannot understand how the county and the economy can ever recover from the loss of so many men, she forsaw the effects carrying on through generation after generation.....

[/quote]

I'm not sure about that, it sounds like an exaggerated case. John Terraine did some work on this myth of the first world war. He showed that the number of men lost during the war (about 200,000 a year pro rata) was not significantly greater than the 'loss' to emigration over the previous few years, which society had managed to survive for many years. I found that surprising, but he seemed to have the numbers on his side. Personally I think he underestimated the effect of serious wounds and neurasthenia on both marriage rates and loss of skilled workers, but he seems sound overall. Given that the losses in WW2 were considerably less (382,000 military, 68,000 civilian against 750,000), the demographic effect would be even less noticeable. Certainly there was no feeling in the 50s and 60s, as there had been 10-25 years after the Great War that a generation had been lost, or that potential leaders had been removed.

[Russethouse]

I looked back and found it - remember Nella Last had fairly grown up children, perhaps she was in her 40's....perhaps the post WW1 experience informed her opinion.

I think politicians must have been talking about increasing trade, promising a better life, post war. She questions who is going to buy and pay for it all. She mentions the destruction, the gap in the birth rate, the women who may suffer healthwise from having worked so hard through the war,  the fact that Europe can not be considered a market for a long time, that we should expect to just help and give for a long time, She asks if it will be the end of the white people in power etc...

It's interesting because it just shows a vastly different perspective from some of the other women, especially one of the younger ones, Muriel Green, in particular, she sees the vast change in the lives in women and sees it in a much better light.

[Dick Smith]

I think that you may be right that she is taking a pre-war attitude and projecting it forward. The First World War had been very popular up until the depression (around 1930) when people revised their opinions, and instead of seeing it as a heroic sacrifice and response to the call of duty it was seen as waste and futility. In fact, of course, it was all of those things.

[Callie]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Do you mean the Algerian unit that was 'decimated' in 1914 - i.e. every tenth man was shot? They had refused to fight, essentially mutiny, which was a capital offence at the time.

About 600 men were executed in WW1  by the French, mostly for cowardice, but also for other crimes such as murder, rape, desertion and mutiny. The number of mutineers executed in the 1917 'collective indiscipline' was officially about 55.

This compares to 306 for Empire forces and 48 for Germany.

Have you seen the film 'Paths of Glory' which centres on this issue?

[/quote]

No, I understood the men executed randomly were here in France, and it had nothing to do with cowardice.  I wonder if some of them came under the 'collective discipline' even so.

I know the film, but haven't seen it.  I did see a film here several years ago, but cannot for the life of me remember it's name, which also deals with this.

[Pads]

Is it possible that before the make over was done, that this name was so badly damaged they could not read it so just put the Xs there to show that it should have a name there ?

[Pierre ZFP]

In reply to RH and Dick's comments about population loss, far more people died in the great influenza pandemic which followed WW1 than were killed in the war.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_1918  Coming on top of the end of the Great War that must have been devastating and is maybe in part what is referred to when thinking if the country could ever recover.

There is a memorial in Flanders (at Tyn Cot)  which gives the relative populations and casualties in WW1. This is the one that sticks in my mind.-

France:   Population 10 million

               Casualties  4 million

[Dick Smith]

The population of France in 1914 was approx 40 million. Their losses (dead) in WW1 were 1.4 million military, 300,000 civilian.

I've never seen that memorial at Tyne Cot (not saying it isn't there, but I haven't seen it). This seems to me to be part of the inflation of casualty figures which is so often a feature of discussions of WW1.

It is true to say that the losses were huge, and that in the case of France, heavier than for the British Empire, and equivalent to the German Empire, but not 10% pf the population.

UK               pop= 45400000        dead = 885000       1.9%

France                   39600000                    1398000    3.5%

Germany                64900000                    2300000   3.5%

USA                        92000000                   168000      0.2%

Australia                 4500000                      62000       1.4%

[trees 2]

Where do your figures come from, Dick? I'm not disputing, just interested.[;-)] The "killed" figure doesn't surprise me, given that every tiny village has a memorial often with 10-20 names on it. The really telling bit is that number of people from the same family.

Maybe the "casualties" figure given at Tyne Cot takes in killed and injured?

Could the 10 million refer to combatants? it seems a little high, if so, but who knows?

To go back to the original post, I wonder if the memorial was built, started, then someone turned up who had been presumed dead?