Marechal Petain-Vichy France

[pachapapa]

Many Brits are unaware of the wide support and approval enjoyed by the Vichy France Regime, strengthened by the controversial events of Mers-El-Kebir. There will be an " hors série" documentary on France 3 on next monday evening.

http://www.programme.tv/petain-un-heros-si-populaire-3109341.php

[Gardian]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Many Brits are unaware of the wide support and approval enjoyed by the Vichy France Regime, [/quote]

I can strongly recommend 'England's Last War Against France' by Colin Smith. Amazon obtainable of course at a fraction of the cover price. A good present for any Dads on here looking for something to suggest to sons / daughters.

A good account of the background to the British (partial) destruction of the French fleet and the subsequent conflicts in Madagascar and the Middle East. It makes you realise that the loyalty of those French servicemen to France, overwhelmed any misgivings that they almost certainly had towards their occupiers.  

[Salty Sam]

Many Brits and I suspect, many French will be unaware of the extent of collaboration between Pétain and Hitler. This recently discovered document, which has been validated as genuine, indicates Pétain "completely redrafted" the memo to make it even harsher and wider-ranging, according to France's foremost Jewish historian. "The statute on Jews was a statute that was adopted without pressure from the Germans, and without the request of the Germans.

[url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2023244,00.html[/url] 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]

Many Brits and I suspect, many French will be unaware of the extent of collaboration between Pétain and Hitler. This recently discovered document, which has been validated as genuine, indicates Pétain "completely redrafted" the memo to make it even harsher and wider-ranging, according to France's foremost Jewish historian. "The statute on Jews was a statute that was adopted without pressure from the Germans, and without the request of the Germans.

[url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2023244,00.html[/url] 

[/quote]

Is that link kosher?  It blocks my IE.

[Salty Sam]

Works perfectly for me in both Internet explorer and Opera.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]Works perfectly for me in both Internet explorer and Opera.[/quote]

Working fine on the Vista machine. Read it now. OK! I am no lover of Vichy France but always have suspicions of the self interest of the Klarsfeld clan; in this case the alteration to the original was made with pencil not ink which would have been more usual at the time; in addition the graphology was done by whom.....ahhh the klarsfeld's themselves.

PPP is still awaiting the results of a proper investigatory examination, including the curious source of the material.

[Araucaria]

I think the full extent of Petain's willingness to do anything that the German regime wanted has been known for more than thirty years: Robert Paxton's book on Petain and Vichy was first published in 1972 and made extensive use of documents from the German wartime archives (held in the US). He repeatedly contrasts the German record of meetings and negotiations between Vichy and Germany with accounts published after the war by the French participants. Many of the latter proved to have remarkably poor memories of documents that they had prepared or offers that they had made.

After reading Paxton's book the sad fact that emerged was that the Vichy regime's collaborationist strategy simply didn't work: the Germans had no intention ever (for example) of releasing the numerous (2 million or more from memory) French PoWs who had been captured in 1940, or of allowing the Vichy regime any independence of action. Paxton contrasts nutritional levels in fully occupied countries like the Netherlands and Belgium with those in France: the Dutch and Belgians on average had more food. French agricultural production was massively diverted to Germany. And so far as the treatment of Jews was concerned, the area of (SE) France that was occupied by Italy proved to be a refuge for many Jews who would have perished under Vichy's harsh antisemitic measures.

[Patf]

I was going to make the same point, but in a more mundane way - the film "Charlotte Gray" confirmed what most people in the west thought of the Vichy regime.

But there was also  more subtle support, or at least acceptance, of the german occupation in the SW of France. Which happened in ? 1943.

In spite of the Resistance, which tore families apart.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Patf"]I was going to make the same point, but in a more mundane way - the film "Charlotte Gray" confirmed what most people in the west thought of the Vichy regime.
But there was also  more subtle support, or at least acceptance, of the german occupation in the SW of France. Which happened in ? 1943.
In spite of the Resistance, which tore families apart.
[/quote]

Not 1943 but 1942 subsequent to the Operation Torch on Sunday 8th November.

http://www.ina.fr/histoire-et-conflits/seconde-guerre-mondiale/video/AFE86001051/dimanche-8-novembre-1942-operation-torch.fr.html

http://www.hist-geo.com/Carte/France/1940-1942/Armistice-22-Juin-1940.php

[Salty Sam]

Some interesting and factual points Araucaria, which only go to strengthen the argument with regard to the authenticity of the recently acquired draft memorandum bearing Pétain's radical alterations to the original document.

[quote]And so far as the treatment of Jews was concerned, the area of (SE) France that was occupied by Italy proved to be a refuge for many Jews who would have perished under Vichy's harsh antisemitic measures.[/quote] Quite true, but only until the German occupation of Italy.

It is interesting to note in the Lyon Museum of The Resistance and Deportation - located in the former Gestapo headquarters, no punches are pulled in pointing out that the Vichy Government started deporting Jews before any orders to do so from the Germans.

Another recommended read: "Vichy France and the Jews by Michael R. Marrus and Robert O. Paxton".

 

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

 in this case the alteration to the original was made with pencil not ink which would have been more usual at the time; [/quote]

On the contrary, it is quite common to find a mixture of type/ink/pencil on documentation, as can be found in various collections.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"][quote user="pachapapa"]

 in this case the alteration to the original was made with pencil not ink which would have been more usual at the time; [/quote]

On the contrary, it is quite common to find a mixture of type/ink/pencil on documentation, as can be found in various collections.

[/quote]

I"m more likely to believe the story about arno and carlita.[:)]

[pachapapa]

Rather than a comment on popular use of carbon pencils; I was expecting something like this:

http://www.akadem.org/photos/contextuels/8583_RapportstatutJ001.pdf