St Nazaire - ''The greatest raid of all''

[just john]

Stirring daring do, repeat of Jeremy Clarksons programme of the commando raid on  St_Nazaire_

JC on St Nazaire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00796h6

 

[Pierre ZFP]

I caught this last night by accident. I assume the facts were accurate, or as near as they get on programs like these. When Clarkson isn't being an overbearing boor , he can present a good program.

I think I was amazed, appalled and full of admiration in equal measure.   I ask myself would I have been up to the task that those Commandos did and the answer is probably 'no'.

 

[Weedon]

The programme that followed that one was very interesting as well. It was either 'Operation Mincedmeat' or 'Mincemeat', can't remember exactly which now and I know JJ gets irritated by sloppiness.[:D]

I remember Clarkson telling a story about a WW2 hero, who turned out to be his father-in-law or his FIL to be at the time, and the fact that the gentleman had never ever mentioned it. Isn't it always striking that those who show true bravery never see themselves as doing anything extraordinary.

I am like you Pierre, I like to think that in similar circumstances I could be as brave but thankfully I shall never find out if that is so, as I fear I might fail the test.

[Richard51]

[quote user="Weedon"]

I remember Clarkson telling a story about a WW2 hero, who turned out to be his father-in-law or his FIL to be at the time, and the fact that the gentleman had never ever mentioned it. Isn't it always striking that those who show true bravery never see themselves as doing anything extraordinary.

[/quote]

Very true.  The father of Mr R51's best friend took part in the D Day landings.  In all the 40+ years Mr R51 had known him, he had never mentioned it and it only came up because we had called around to see him and his wife after a holiday in Normandy where we had taken our kids to see all the landing beaches, Point de Hoc, Pegasus Bridge etc.  This was in the late 1990's.

Similarly my uncle was a squadron leader in Bomber Command - which we knew.  What we didn't know was that he won the DSO for bring back a burning plane (the plane had taken a direct hit) to save the lives of two comrades who weren't fit to bail out.  The fact his plane was on fire made him a target for the Luftwaffe who gave chase to shoot him down.  He managed to land the plane.  One of his friends had died but the other survived.  We (his family) only found out the details of his commendation from an RAF obituary.  He never spoke about it, in fact he was racked with guilt about having to bomb areas where there were civilians.  In later years, dementia took him back to that period and he suffered with terrible screaming nightmares.

Btw the programme was about 'Operation Mincemeat' (Counter espionage re Sicily landings - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat).  I only caught the end of the JC programme and would have liked to have seen it in full.

Mrs R51

[mint]

I didn't watch that one but I watched the following "Operation Mincemeat".  I couldn't believe that such an operation against all the odds succeeded so spectacularly.

[EmilyA]

The film version "The Man Who Never Was" is wonderful. Some details were changed, but it is pretty close to the real story.

[idun]

I watched the St Nazaire Raid last night. I cried and even laughed a little too. Very moving, so young and so brave.

I was very glad that it was said that the 'current' young could do the same if circumstances required it. I too think that they could and would.

Excellent program.

I didn't watch Operation Mincemeat, I have read a few things about it over the years and ofcourse seen The Man who Never Was too. When the chips are down, a good imagination works, not just wonders but miracles.

[Richard51]

[quote user="idun"]I was very glad that it was said that the 'current' young could do the same if circumstances required it. I too think that they could and would. [/quote]

I agree.  Most of the young people I know are sincere, hard working and considerate and don't fit the stereotype that the media likes to paint.

Mrs R51

[Richard51]

This thread started us on the 'digging up family history' path, and I managed to locate the official citation in the London Gazette for my uncle:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/37109/supplements/2847 (Para 3 right hand column - SL Francis Finney)

His brother Alexander (Bam) was shot down and we have not been able to trace what happened to him.  We promised his sister we would find out (she just got the MIAPD telegram) and never found where he was buried or how he died.  We now know where he is buried but the how's and why's escape us.  Such is war...  At least we have a grave now.

Mrs R51

[Paul Bradford]

Have a look at the forum on www.rafcommands.com I was able to dig up information on my wife's great Uncle. If you cannot find something, add a posting, giving all the information that you are looking for. You may be suprised. I received a telephone call from a chap that had been researching Battle of Britain pilots and he gave me the aircraft number that he had crashed in and the location of his death. As a result of the posting, last year, for the 65th anniversary of WW2, we received an invitation to a ceremony in Holland where a monument to him and his pilot (they were in a fighter bomber) was inaugurated. It was where they both won their DFC's. They were hidden for three days and left on a British destroyer.We were feted for the day by the local villagers and are still in contact with them. It was very moving and we will remember it forever. Keep searching the internet, you may find something else. Good luck. Paul

[Loiseau]

I went to the Imperial War Museum in London the other day, to look at the new gallery devoted to holders of the VC and the George Medal.  There was at least one VC from the St Nazaire raid, with a brief account of the action.

Incidentally, there is quite a lot about the raid in the "Grand Blockhaus", the German gun emplacement at Batz-sur-Mer, to the west of St Nazaire.  It's a fascinating place to visit.

And of course if you visit St Nazaire itself, you can go on board a (1950s French) submarine, called Espadon, inside the covered German-built submarine dock, and later climb onto the roof of the dock for a view of the lock that was rammed by the Campbeltown. 
The main submarine pens across the water are still in place, and are eerily vast.   You can go on the roof of that massive building too, and read the panels (in French and English) about the history of the area while enjoying a bird's-eye view of the docks.

Angela

[SC]

I'm not keen on military history myself as political history history upsets me before I get to the actuality.

I guess that you folks know about the Lancastrian? the worst single loss of life in British maritime history.

Kept quiet at the time for reasons of morale, there was a documentary a few years ago, but it's still largely unrecognised. Perhaps because most of the victims were civilians?

Steve

[Loiseau]

Indeed yes, Steve. Somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 lost their lives during a mass evacuation in June 1940.

The Grand Blockhaus has some photographs of the Lancastria disaster, and the old Semaphore building at Pointe St Gildas (near Pornic) has quite a lot on the subject.

The most moving aspect for me is the odd one or two Commonwealth War Graves Commission headstones you come across in coastal village cemeteries for miles along the Bay of Bourgneuf (south of the Loire estuary), with graves of unknown soldiers and sailors whose bodies were washed up in the days after the Lancastria was sunk. Even as far south as Noirmoutier island you find them.

Angela

[suej]

 

Like the five sad but beautifully tended graves in the parish churchyard at Barre des Monts...

[just john]

Both events reasons why At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.

But two completely different tones, one where a band of men attacked a strategic target against the odds and at some sacrifice achieved their objective. The other, quite a different sitting target with terrific subsequent loss of life, somehow in my eyes an unequal struggle, I can't think of an allied equivalent to that of the German attack on the Lancastrian?

 

[Gardengirl]

A lot fewer were killed than on the Lancastrian, but another terrible event was the sinking of the passenger ship, City of Benares. It was an evacuee ship which was torpedoed, and 81 children were killed.

It was the 70th anniversary of the sinking last September, and we were in the NE for a family funeral. Because of this, we unfortunately couldn’t attend the memorial service which was being held in Sunderland.

We did visit a small museum by the sea, which holds a collection of many items about local ships and the sea, specially to see a plaque which had been erected in memory of local children who had been killed during the on the City of Benares. This included two of my cousins, who my uncle and aunt thought they were sending to spend the war safely with relatives.

I had contacted the curator to say we hoped to visit, and told her of my connection with the disaster. She had got out a box of photos, letters, tributes etc about the local children who had been killed.  It was very moving to see photos of my cousins, some of whom I hadn’t seen before. Especially emotional were cards written in childish writing by my cousins the night before they sailed, to say they were fine and very excited about the adventure they were about to start. In all the excitement, the adults in charge had forgotten to pass the cards over for posting before sailing. There was also a letter from the head of the Children's Overseas Reception Board to my aunt and uncle, explaing what the enclosed envelope contained, so that they had the choice to open it and read the cards or dispose of them. This event brought to an end  official efforts to send children to safety by sea.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/15/benares-sunk-war-81-children-dead

 

[Loiseau]

Nitpick warning!!

It's the LANCASTRIA, folks, no N at the end.

Angela

[Sunday Driver]

The greatest loss of life during a maritime war attack in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV Wilhelm_Gustloff

 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The greatest loss of life during a maritime war attack in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV Wilhelm_Gustloff

 

[/quote]

Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.[8-)]

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The greatest loss of life during a maritime war attack in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV Wilhelm_Gustloff

 

[/quote]

Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.[8-)]

[/quote]

Well try this then:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Wilhelm_Gustloff[/url]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"][quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The greatest loss of life during a maritime war attack in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV Wilhelm_Gustloff

 

[/quote]

Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.[8-)]

[/quote]

Well try this then:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Wilhelm_Gustloff[/url]

[/quote]

No problem, been there, got the TEE shirt.[;-)]

http://www.google.fr/#hl=fr&source=hp&q=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMVWilhelm_Gustloff&btnG=Recherche+Google&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=60c14dadb06a2c70