Tally Ho - Oh Non ! Not in France, what a Quirck...

[Will]

Ian - I think that tale speaks volumes about a lot of the sort of people who go hunting. They seem to be the sort that if they can't practice their own idea of 'sport' at home will try to practice it elsewhere.

Fortunately not all hunters are like that, just as not all country people would necessarily choose to go hunting, but still see the UK ban as an equal act of arrogance and selfishness by certain MPs.

[Patf]

Deimos - husband took this test and thinks it may be specifically for

permission to hunt with a gun. So it may not apply to those hunting

with dogs, on horseback. They would still need permission to ride

across farmland. It will be interesting to hear what the Chasse man

says when you see him next week. Pat.

[chris pp]

I think you will find that you need a permit to hunt regardless of which form your hunting takes, bow & arrow, falconry, knife, spear, sword, glue, mist net, mounted or firearm. It is also required that you have the consent of the landowners, this right has normally been "given up" to an ACA or ACCA  or made into a private hunt (read the link, I am sorry it's a bit long). This to my way of thinking is what is interesting in the case of Mr Quirk.

Good reading, Chris

[chris pp]

oops, forgot the link, too busy thinking about going out.

http://www.senat.fr/rap/l98-408/l98-4081.html 

Chris

[Deimos]

I could imagine Quirk’s local hunt seeing it either as a bloody

nuisance and “keep them out” or maybe as an opportunity to fill their coffers a

bit by taking their cut on the hunting fees. 

However, I guess the local hunt cannot go around dishing out licenses “willy

nilly” (there must be some rules about that). 

Also, I wonder what the insurance position would be.

Ian

[crdale]

[quote user="chris pp"]

I think you will find that you need a permit to hunt regardless of which form your hunting takes, bow & arrow, falconry, knife, spear, sword, glue, mist net, mounted or firearm. It is also required that you have the consent of the landowners, this right has normally been "given up" to an ACA or ACCA  or made into a private hunt (read the link, I am sorry it's a bit long). This to my way of thinking is what is interesting in the case of Mr Quirk.

Good reading, Chris

[/quote] Yes but the majority of the field are not hunting they are observing the only people that would actually be hunting are the huntsman and his assistants

 

Chris

[crdale]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote]Like I posted I care very little if a fox is shot or hunted the fox will be killed quicker with a pack of dogs than a non fatal gunshot wound,it,s mainly about the class thing as is popping up in the ...[/quote]

Might be true in the UK but in France the ammo used is high velocity, hollow tipped and soft nosed, sort of normal size going in, size of large dinner plate coming out. I should immagine, if they shot Fox's in France there would be very little left to be alive after.

What they do in the UK is up to them, I have no interest what so ever just don't bring it over here.

[/quote]wow what sort of bullets are they the high velocity hollow tipped soft nosed bullets I have used here in the UK didn't do any like that ammount of damage  mind you the rabbits and hares I used them on would not have been worth eating if they had

 

Chris

[chris pp]

crdale.Chris.  Maybe my point about a permis wasn't clear, it was really just to clarify that it isn't just hunting with guns that require permission and of course you need a different qualification for a shotgun than a high velocity rifle, looking at the number of permits issued for each category shows that clearly enough.   I have no idea how they differentiate in France between followers and hunters ( I am sure it is different to the UK). In France with Chassse à courre normally only two people are permitted to be armed with a dagger but the others are still part of the hunt.

If you read the link it explains how an area is controlled and Pyrénées Atlantique seems to have an awful lot of hectares already accounted for and I suspect that is where Mr Quirck has his problemette.

Best, Chris

 

[Deimos]

Spent quite a long time with the President of our local

Chasse today and remembered to ask about people “participating” in a hunt (i.e.

not actually hunting in terms of “the kill” but also, not independent bystanders

just watching).  He thought they would definitely

require a “permit de chasse”, and thus would need to take their theory and

practical tests, etc.

Ian

[Christine Animal]

I found this, which says that the ones carrying a whip and a horn or an arm are therefore hunting and should have a "permis".  The hunt must be led by a "responsable" (person in charge) who holds a "permis de chasser".

Les veneurs doivent-ils avoir le permis de chasser ?
Les veneurs qui portent le fouet et la trompe ou une arme font acte de chasse et doivent avoir un permis de chasser. L'équipage doit être dirigé par un responsable titulaire du permis de chasser.

http://www.chasse-enligne.com/annuaire/infoprat1.php?IDInfoprat=41

 

[Zo]

You fantasic people! You have just given me my dissertation subject! hooray!

 

[chris pp]

Happy New Year Zoe and good luck with your projects.

Chris

[Zo]

Thanks Chris, Happy new year!

This is obviously a very sensitive subject and everyone has such strong views about it, I'm almost afraid to join the discussion!!!

I personally find that my opinion changes every time I read or hear something new. However I'm quite certain that the british government has gone about it in the wrong way. Forcing or removing a traditional way of life upon people purely by force is silly and will only lead to revolts against the enforcers (in this case, the poor police who don't really stand a chance.) The law is so unclear as to be pointless. I'm not really effected by hunting one way or another, however this brutal enforcment of political will is a worry. You simply have to wonder what they'll decide to do next!? For example, I use a bird of prey as a form of pest control on our land. Will the government suddenly decide that I am being unnecessarily cruel and ban me?! If so, then I won't ever be able to fly my bird free. (Is that not also cruel?) The fact that all I want him to chase are rabbits or pigeons doesn't stop him from going for anything that moves. Also, what happens if my dog happens to catch a hare? Would this be construed as 'hunting'? Will my dog have to be put down? Would every dog owner have to get a hunting licence 'just in case'?

The british government seems to have rushed into this, despite people having said they've been working on it for some time. Breeders should have been given time to stop having litters so they wouldn't have to put down all their puppies. A beautiful litter of 10 adorable beagle pups, bred for hunting, near where I live were all put down because it's not just fox-hunting, it's hunting with dogs that's been banned. It's pure waste!

Having said this, it doesn't look like the english are having too much luck creating new hunts in france, although I hear they are quite welcome to join existing ones. This seems by far the least disruptive route. After all, if some frenchman decided to start up a Chevalerie in an idyllic english town the whole country would be up in arms! Each to his own.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Zo"]

Thanks Chris, Happy new year!

This is obviously a very sensitive subject and everyone has such strong views about it, I'm almost afraid to join the discussion!!!

I personally find that my opinion changes every time I read or hear something new. However I'm quite certain that the british government has gone about it in the wrong way. Forcing or removing a traditional way of life upon people purely by force is silly and will only lead to revolts against the enforcers (in this case, the poor police who don't really stand a chance.) The law is so unclear as to be pointless. I'm not really effected by hunting one way or another, however this brutal enforcement of political will is a worry. You simply have to wonder what they'll decide to do next!? For example, I use a bird of prey as a form of pest control on our land. Will the government suddenly decide that I am being unnecessarily cruel and ban me?! If so, then I won't ever be able to fly my bird free. (Is that not also cruel?) The fact that all I want him to chase are rabbits or pigeons doesn't stop him from going for anything that moves. Also, what happens if my dog happens to catch a hare? Would this be construed as 'hunting'? Will my dog have to be put down? Would every dog owner have to get a hunting license 'just in case'?

The british government seems to have rushed into this, despite people having said they've been working on it for some time. Breeders should have been given time to stop having litters so they wouldn't have to put down all their puppies. A beautiful litter of 10 adorable beagle pups, bred for hunting, near where I live were all put down because it's not just fox-hunting, it's hunting with dogs that's been banned. It's pure waste!

Having said this, it doesn't look like the english are having too much luck creating new hunts in france, although I hear they are quite welcome to join existing ones. This seems by far the least disruptive route. After all, if some frenchman decided to start up a Chevalerie in an idyllic english town the whole country would be up in arms! Each to his own.

[/quote]

Goodness Zo - I think you have a lot of reading to do :)

Firstly

 'Forcing or removing a traditional way of life upon people purely by force is silly and will only lead to revolts against the enforcers (in this case, the poor police who don't really stand a chance.)

The change was achieved by democratic process, it most certainly was not 'forced' but people did have strongly held views.

The law is so unclear as to be pointless

It certainly is not the best piece of legislation ever passed and I suspect will be modified over time

For example, I use a bird of prey as a form of pest control on our land. Will the government suddenly decide that I am being unnecessarily cruel and ban me?!

I wouldn't think so however I think you may need to watch out for any legislation as some hunts are using birds of prey to 'finish off' the fox. If the government tried to stop people not abiding by the spirit of the law I guess your activity could get caught in the fall out

Also, what happens if my dog happens to catch a hare

I'm not sure how the legislation regarding this is framed but hare coursing  (which is banned, thank goodness)involved 2 dogs chasing the hare usually with large wagers being placed on the outcome

The british government seems to have rushed into this, despite people having said they've been working on it for some time. Breeders should have been given time to stop having litters so they wouldn't have to put down all their puppies. A beautiful litter of 10 adorable beagle pups, bred for hunting, near where I live were all put down because it's not just fox-hunting, it's hunting with dogs that's been banned. It's pure waste!

It took many years to get anti fox hunting adopted by the labour party, but it has been part of the Labour Party manifesto for some time( 8 years or so) The hunt had years to change their breeding patterns, in fact in some areas the hunts were offered help in 'homing' dogs and in most cases actually preferred to have the dogs destroyed.

Before you start your dissertation it might be worth googling the 'History of the League Against Cruel Sports'  and also looking at the writings of Richard Ryder, previously mentioned in this thread.

Good Luck with your degree.

 

[chris pp]

On the dog / puppy point.  Way back when I lived in the UK I remember a documentary about hunting, all out in the open, no hidden camera.  It showed quite "graphically" older, NOT OLD hunting dogs that could no longer "keep up" being taken out in the stable yard and shot with a shot gun. Humane enough, expedient sure, but the reason given was that if the dogs could no longer pay their way then the owners couldn't waste money feeding them.

Just another perspective, Chris

 

[crdale]

[quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="Zo"]

Thanks Chris, Happy new year!

This is obviously a very sensitive subject and everyone has such strong views about it, I'm almost afraid to join the discussion!!!

I personally find that my opinion changes every time I read or hear something new. However I'm quite certain that the british government has gone about it in the wrong way. Forcing or removing a traditional way of life upon people purely by force is silly and will only lead to revolts against the enforcers (in this case, the poor police who don't really stand a chance.) The law is so unclear as to be pointless. I'm not really effected by hunting one way or another, however this brutal enforcement of political will is a worry. You simply have to wonder what they'll decide to do next!? For example, I use a bird of prey as a form of pest control on our land. Will the government suddenly decide that I am being unnecessarily cruel and ban me?! If so, then I won't ever be able to fly my bird free. (Is that not also cruel?) The fact that all I want him to chase are rabbits or pigeons doesn't stop him from going for anything that moves. Also, what happens if my dog happens to catch a hare? Would this be construed as 'hunting'? Will my dog have to be put down? Would every dog owner have to get a hunting license 'just in case'?

The british government seems to have rushed into this, despite people having said they've been working on it for some time. Breeders should have been given time to stop having litters so they wouldn't have to put down all their puppies. A beautiful litter of 10 adorable beagle pups, bred for hunting, near where I live were all put down because it's not just fox-hunting, it's hunting with dogs that's been banned. It's pure waste!

Having said this, it doesn't look like the english are having too much luck creating new hunts in france, although I hear they are quite welcome to join existing ones. This seems by far the least disruptive route. After all, if some frenchman decided to start up a Chevalerie in an idyllic english town the whole country would be up in arms! Each to his own.

[/quote]

Goodness Zo - I think you have a lot of reading to do :)

Firstly

 'Forcing or removing a traditional way of life upon people purely by force is silly and will only lead to revolts against the enforcers (in this case, the poor police who don't really stand a chance.)

The change was achieved by democratic process, it most certainly was not 'forced' but people did have strongly held views.

The law is so unclear as to be pointless

It certainly is not the best piece of legislation ever passed and I suspect will be modified over time

For example, I use a bird of prey as a form of pest control on our land. Will the government suddenly decide that I am being unnecessarily cruel and ban me?!

I wouldn't think so however I think you may need to watch out for any legislation as some hunts are using birds of prey to 'finish off' the fox. If the government tried to stop people not abiding by the spirit of the law I guess your activity could get caught in the fall out

Also, what happens if my dog happens to catch a hare

I'm not sure how the legislation regarding this is framed but hare coursing  (which is banned, thank goodness)involved 2 dogs chasing the hare usually with large wagers being placed on the outcome

The british government seems to have rushed into this, despite people having said they've been working on it for some time. Breeders should have been given time to stop having litters so they wouldn't have to put down all their puppies. A beautiful litter of 10 adorable beagle pups, bred for hunting, near where I live were all put down because it's not just fox-hunting, it's hunting with dogs that's been banned. It's pure waste!

It took many years to get anti fox hunting adopted by the labour party, but it has been part of the Labour Party manifesto for some time( 8 years or so) The hunt had years to change their breeding patterns, in fact in some areas the hunts were offered help in 'homing' dogs and in most cases actually preferred to have the dogs destroyed.

Before you start your dissertation it might be worth googling the 'History of the League Against Cruel Sports'  and also looking at the writings of Richard Ryder, previously mentioned in this thread.

Good Luck with your degree.

 

[/quote]

The change was achieved by democratic process, it most certainly was not 'forced' but people did have strongly held views.

Using the Parliment act (an act only used three times previously for major consitutional matters) is forcing

It certainly is not the best piece of legislation ever passed and I suspect will be modified over time

I doubt it over 700 hours has been used to force this through they are not going to admit they are wrong now

Also, what happens if my dog happens to catch a hare

I'm not sure how the legislation regarding this is framed but hare coursing  (which is banned, thank goodness)involved 2 dogs chasing the hare usually with large wagers being placed on the outcome

You probably would not be prosecuted  one chap own up to his dogs hunting and catch a hare but police did not take the case any further, he also owned up to hunting a mouse with his dogs in his house (which is also illegal under the act) but again was not prosecuted. Interesting thing about hare coursing (a sport that intends the hare to escape) the weekend after the ban some 8000 hares were shot by organised shoots which is more hares than were killed coursing since the second world war in fact if you took the average number of hares killed coursing per year since the war 8000 hares would have lasted over 150 years.

It took many years to get anti fox hunting adopted by the labour party, but it has been part of the Labour Party manifesto for some time( 8 years or so) The hunt had years to change their breeding patterns, in fact in some areas the hunts were offered help in 'homing' dogs and in most cases actually preferred to have the dogs destroyed.

Before you start your dissertation it might be worth googling the 'History of the League Against Cruel Sports'  and also looking at the writings of Richard Ryder, previously mentioned in this thread.

The labour party bill that was put forward which had been fairly well thought out and reasonably fair (it was disliked by both sides of the arguement) was throw out at the first opportunity and the current illiberal act replaced it.

I wonder if the history of the league against cruel sports mentions the fact that it has lost more than one chief executive due to the fact that they have come to the concusion that hunting is not particularly cruel.

To balance the history of the league you  should probably check out the countryside alliance one should alway try to listen to both sides and having done that try reading the Burns report, Lord Burns was brought in by the government to write a report on the effects of hunting with dogs his conclusions were the basis for the government bill that got thrown out by people such as Dennis Skinner who apparently did it for the miners

 

Chris

[Russethouse]

Yes, I agree you should always look at both sides. Sadly I have to agree that while admirable in many ways the LACS leadership has been rather questionable for many years.

I was at the meeting in London where Raymond Rowley was virtually deposed - (yes I am that old ) and sadly I have to say that I knew Richard Course too. The League has also not managed some of its sanctuaries very well, which is disappointing when many people worked hard to raise funds to purchase them in the first place.

Its probably 25 years since I have been a member of the LACS however I have taken an interest in the progress the bill has made and although the aim has been achieved I certainly think the bill needs refining.

I question whether the fox really is a pest, and if it is not, why do we kill it ? Indeed if that is the case why were foxes bred for the hunt ? Hare coursing was an abomination and while deer numbers need to be controlled I suspect that there are many better ways of doing it than with a pack of hounds (in any case this method alone would probably not be enough)

The poster doing the research may like to look up Countryside Alliance under its previous name - British Field Sports Society

 

[Russethouse]

Can I just take a moment here to pay tribute to the MP Tony Banks, an animal welfare campaigner as well as sports minister, whose untimely death has just been announced.

A quote from the current chairman of the LACS, John Cooper:

"In his firm belief that people have a moral responsibility in respect of how they treat animals, Tony Banks was not just a figurehead for millions of animal welfare supporters across Britain, but a determined street fighter in the corridors of Westminster."

[Deimos]

Saw my first “UK style” hunt yesterday.  Lots of people dressed up smart on their

horses, not as many dogs as in the UK but quite a few.  Horse trailers from more than 3 different

departments.  Actually in a large

forested area rather than open fields.

What I found particularly interesting was the attitude of

those dressed up on their horses.  They

would quite happily hang around in a group, sitting on their horses blocking

the road.  Whilst I was sitting stopped

in my car (on a public road waiting for them to move so I could pass) and they

were just sitting there talking – looking at me with total distain as if to say

“what – you expect us to move !!”. 

Exactly the same attitude as I have experienced with hunts in the

UK.  Sort of “what we are doing is so much

more important than you, you can wait until be feel like moving.

Maybe Mr. Quirk will have more success that I first thought

(though I do not wish him well in his venture to start hunting for the Brits).

Ian

[Dick Smith]

Truly the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible. (O.Wilde)

[chris pp]

If they were all "horsed up" it will probably have been for deer or even,  wait for it,....hare ( don't ask). Fox is almost never hunted in France on horseback, but on foot, with dogs used mainly for driving out to be shot (at). Digging out is the other popular method with foxes ( and badgers). What region are you in Ian?  I'm sure I asked before and have forgotten.

Chris.

[Deimos]

72 (Sarthe) and 37 (Indre et Loire) borders (50Km north of

La Loire).  It wasin a forest so I would think most likely deer.  It

was once a natural forest but I think all those three went long ago and is now used

for forestry.

Ian

[Patf]

There was a photo in our local paper on Friday of a hunt ready to set

off in Labejhan, 32. They were all dressed up in outfits similar to uk

huntsmen, carrying circular hunting horns. Very smart. They had a pack of dogs, and

were going after hares. No horses though.Pat.

[Dick Smith]

I've always thought that one of the reasons so many of the 'quality' have hunted in the UK is to emphasise their equestrian status - and that so many of the 'ordinary people' have kow-towed to them as part of the semi-feudal country society that so many of them seem to want to perpetuate, all tied cottages and tugged forelocks. Or in other words, do as the landowner tells you or you are out on your backside. So I am surprised that in France they get all pinked up and then - what? Do hobbyhorse impersonations?

[chris pp]

Hare hunt - Vienne 86 - serious business!

Chris