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Time taken to become fluent?


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After living here for six years, but having done a degree in French I would say my French was  fluent.  Getting through my civil service exams was a big thing for me, and now, eight years after I got here I correct my French school children's French!  There are so many words I know that they don't, this afternoon the 6eme asked me what légitime meant!  For me, being fluent in French means not making mistakes with gender, and being able to write it like I can English.

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Tourangelle, [:)] so would that imply that an illiterate french person was not 'fluent'.

I know some non french people who write excellent french. French people say that they do. But they don't speak french very well and sometimes have trouble understanding spoken french..............

As I always say, a language is a language, ie use the tongue, otherwise we would call it an ecrivage wouldn't we.

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[quote user="Teamedup"]

Tourangelle, [:)] so would that imply that an illiterate french person was not 'fluent'.

I know some non french people who write excellent french. French people say that they do. But they don't speak french very well and sometimes have trouble understanding spoken french..............

As I always say, a language is a language, ie use the tongue, otherwise we would call it an ecrivage wouldn't we.

[/quote]

So you can be fluent but illiterate? 

Kathie

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[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Teamedup"]

Tourangelle, [:)] so would that imply that an illiterate french person was not 'fluent'.

I know some non french people who write excellent french. French people say that they do. But they don't speak french very well and sometimes have trouble understanding spoken french..............

As I always say, a language is a language, ie use the tongue, otherwise we would call it an ecrivage wouldn't we.

[/quote]

So you can be fluent but illiterate? 

Kathie

[/quote]

Of course - fluency is about spoken language and literacy written language.

The question may be at which level you are fluent.

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[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Teamedup"]

Tourangelle, [:)] so would that imply that an illiterate french person was not 'fluent'.

I know some non french people who write excellent french. French people say that they do. But they don't speak french very well and sometimes have trouble understanding spoken french..............

As I always say, a language is a language, ie use the tongue, otherwise we would call it an ecrivage wouldn't we.

[/quote]

So you can be fluent but illiterate? 

Kathie
[/quote]

 

 

Mais oui Kathie

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"The question may be at which level you are fluent."

I think that's the right question to ask. To look at it from an English angle, there is a woman on the fish counter in Sarlat who speaks what I regard as fluent English. She lived in London for nearly twenty years and speaks with a strong southern English accent. I have met her in situations other buying fish, but I don't know if she would be able to hold an intellectual conversation in either language.

What exactly is fluent ?

Hoddy
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I think a lot of people confuse 'fluent' with 'bilingual' and even some people who are bilingual have noticeable accents.

I consider myself to be fairly fluent. I can discuss most things with my French in-laws, including giving some IT support over the phone. There are gaps in my vocabulary but they can be overcome. (For any programmers out there the latest was explaining the function of a 'stack' as a programming construct!) I can confidently use subjunctives but still get some genders wrong.

My wife is bilingual. Born in France, she has lived in England for 36 years, run her own business and can hold her own at any dinner party. She still has a noticeable accent. I have met a very (thumbs of one hand!) small number of adults who can be taken for native speakers in two languages
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Definitely don't think fluency is the same as literacy - and in fact for many people literacy would be about reading.  Well, I normally read in French, can read a novel just as quickly as in English, my French comprehension and spoken French is sufficient to hold my own in council meetings or university level seminars BUT writing, oh dear, oh dear.  For some reason as soon as I try to write in French my knowledge of grammar and agreements seems to go straight out of the window.  I can write a letter or article, but it takes me ages and I have to resort to the dictionary all the time.  As soon as I write it down I have doubts as to the gender of a word, can't remember which bit of the verb agrees with what and the lose the ability to construct a fluent sentence.  The only thing that cheers me up is that many French people seem to be in the same boat.  They mostly have very pretty handwriting, which I don't,  but I've noticed that their grammar is often no better than mine.
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I read Tourangelle's and Albert's comments with interest. I'm in the same situation as Tourangelle, I've taken the same exams and I, too, have a larger vocabulary than most of my pupils (and many of my fellow teachers too) My written French is better than quite a lot of my friends and I can communicate as well in French as in English in every situation that I can actually communicate in (i.e. my lack of communication ability in computing has nothing to do with language)

But I don't know if I consider myself as "fluent". I'm more likely to say that I speak "very good French". In the same way, I was talking about bilinguals with friends the other day and they said "but you're bilingual" Again I have never considered myself to be bilingual (probably because I still make the odd mistake on some genders and because I still have my English accent) I'm obviously a bit of a perfectionist

So I suppose that the problem with "fluency" is that everyone has their own idea of what it means exactly.

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fluency; yes, i agree, that's a truly difficult one.  i have known turkish and spanish waiters who are fluent in english but are quite ungrammatical.  also, i know an albanian doctor who learned english by listening to the bbc!  he is both fluent and grammatical.  however, he is not so good on colloquial expressions, for example, i remember saying to him as a throwaway comment about someone "pushing up the daisies" and he had no idea what i was talking about!  he is probably a good doctor but even he must have had patients that he was unable to help and are even now pushing up the daisies.  he also says things which sound "odd" even when they are grammatical.  eg, we were at a dinner party in a farmhouse once and he looked out the window, saw the cows and he said, "that looks very buccolic!"

i would say that someone is fluent if they can converse in everyday conversations and has effective communication.  i know someone would now query "effective communication";  all i mean is, if you can make yourself understood in most everyday situations and you can understand others.

of course, you are fluent even if you cannot hold an intellectual conversation and discuss existentialism!  after all, how many native speakers can?  i tempt fate by talking politics sometimes in france but in the uk, i wouldn't dream of doing it because i feel i am too opinionated in this area not to inadvertently put my foot in it and upset someone or other!

writing is a different exercise altogether.  humans talk before they learn to write so, while writing may not come as naturally as speech, you do get a chance to revise what you have written and make appropriate corrections and improvements.

having said all this, i do think french is the most devilishly difficult language to pronounce and consequently, i don't for one moment think that i will ever achieve great profficiency

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[quote user="Dick Smith"][quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Teamedup"]

Tourangelle, [:)] so would that imply that an illiterate french person was not 'fluent'.

I know some non french people who write excellent french. French people say that they do. But they don't speak french very well and sometimes have trouble understanding spoken french..............

As I always say, a language is a language, ie use the tongue, otherwise we would call it an ecrivage wouldn't we.

[/quote]

So you can be fluent but illiterate? 

Kathie

[/quote]

Of course - fluency is about spoken language and literacy written language.

The question may be at which level you are fluent.

[/quote]

So when I see job adverts for international tax consultants etc that require fluency in french it means I only need to be able to speak like a french fishwife and not able to write a word?   I think you'll find that the word fluency can be applied to either verbal or written proficiency in a language and so you are not truly 'fluent' until you are have a natural ease and competency in both.

Kathie

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[quote user="Dick Smith"]Yes, well if you want to be pedantic it's a case of literacy and oracy. That is a judgement of functionality. Articulacy is something else. Normally we would speak of fluency as the spoken or oral element. But hey - why not pick nits?

[/quote]

LOL - well I learned from the master nit picker Dick [;-)]

Kathie

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[quote user="Dick Smith"]Yes, well if you want to be pedantic it's a case of literacy and oracy. That is a judgement of functionality. Articulacy is something else. Normally we would speak of fluency as the spoken or oral element. But hey - why not pick nits?
[/quote]Well, let the OED settle the argument (huh?) "able to express oneself easily and articulately " "able to speak or write [my italics] a particular foreign language easily and accurately"
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[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Dick Smith"]Yes, well if you want to be pedantic it's a case of literacy and oracy. That is a judgement of functionality. Articulacy is something else. Normally we would speak of fluency as the spoken or oral element. But hey - why not pick nits?

[/quote]

LOL - well I learned from the master nit picker Dick [;-)]

Kathie

[/quote]

Ho ho ho.

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Here's the European Language Portfolio Scale (Related directly to the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages). http://www.coe.int/T/DG4/Portfolio/documents/globalscale.doc

This is what the Council of Europe has used as its standard for determining levels of linguistic proficiency (notice the neat way I sidestepped that?). See if you can identify yourself on their scale.

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Sorry to have missed this thread.  Its

something dear to my heart.  In fact I

might return to Britain due (in part), to my frustration with my French

language proficiency.  I am probably a B2 on the scale Betty provided,

descending to B1 for writing and sometimes to C1 orally or readingly (I could

NOT “invent” that non-existent word in French…).  I have been here for

nearly five years.  When I read Cathy's description of her level, I am

probably thereabouts.  A few comments.

To me, fluency (proficiency) means that I am as comfortable speaking French as English.  I already enjoy sitting in a cafe with a French

pal, talking for two hours.  I can read the paper every day, and books

too. The news is seldom a mystery to me. 

I don’t have English TV (except Eurosport).  I can

wiggle around most words I don't know.  But I make loads of oral mistakes

and would not dare to write a letter without corrections being made.  This fear of writing is not unusual.  In one of the three French groups I am in, always the

only foreigner, one of my pals refused to be secretary.  She would have

been perfect.  But, although she had been to University and was a fairly

bright infant school teacher, she had such a fear of writing letters, that is,

"making a mistake", that she refused to do it.  My French people tend to

have a very low tolerance of BAD written French and much more tolerance with

spoken French. 

What I don’t have with my French is the

ability to choose what “register” or level I speak at.  In English, I move

around a bit depending on whether I am talking to this or that kind of

person.  I don’t speak the same way to my neighbours, my colleagues, my

family, my close friends, people I only nod to, agents of authority and so

forth.  In English, I actually had a slightly dry sense of humour. 

I liked all kinds of people and talked to them often.  I had a variety of registers. 

In French, I am, far too often, a direct, earnest, slightly boringly

serious person.  Fluency or proficiency for me is when you can choose your

register, your level.  Maybe you get it right, or maybe wrong, in relation

to the situation, but you can make the choice, even if unconsiously or spontaneously.  This also involves, for fluency

or proficiency, some accurate knowledge of the cultural context.  For example, a northern British

working class lad or lass (I lived in Yorkshire for 25 years), who has not been

to University will never have the SAME choice of registers in English that

others might.  On the other hand, its a certainty that the hot shot, southern, well educated

person might not be able to use the register of (some) streets and situations either.  No one can ever use ALL the registers of speech.  I won’t even talk about writing, there

is NO possibility that I will ever be as comfortable writing French as English. 

I would have to go to a school full time for at least a year or two, five days

a week, with lots of homework, before I could even approach writing proficiency

or fluency.  What I am saying is that for me, in French, I have maybe

three or four registers, max.  In English I have probably ten.  In

this wild guess realm of registers, there might be 50-100 registers possible in a linguistic

culture.

I

can't find a way to add to my registers fast, I will have to accept a severe

cut in my possible registers for life.  This does not make me very happy.  I am not talking about the level of grammar and

vocabulary, which are hard enough. I
am fluent in the shopping register, for example, even in the

hardware shop.
I can

express myself in the cafe about cycling. 

But a rich and full life is more than fluency in a few registers.  By the way, any other word will do for register, I just made that up to try to get at one angle that troubles me.

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i admire your tenacity with french.  what you need to take on board is that many native speakers are also retricted to perhaps one or two registers.  you will no doubt have heard of bernstein's "restricted" code as you seem to have a lot of knowledge of language and linguistics.  therefore it is ultimately the individual who decides what and how much language they wish to acquire.

i agree, it's difficult to have a rich and varied cultural life without proficiency in a language.  but, does not research show that speech is only a relatively small percentage of how we communicate and that non verbal communication (or body language as it is popularly known) by far makes up the greater percentage? 

as i have said in an earlier post, it depends on what you want to do with the language you have.  for myself, i shall be happy just being able to more or less hold a decent conversation with people.  there again, that might be insufficient for you.  as i am an asperger syndrome sufferer, i don't necessarily want to get really "close" to anyone!

english is not my first or only language but, at university and elsewhere, i have been classified as "native" speaker - whatever that implies!

i think that the truly universal language has to be musical notation.  after all a c is a c in any language and, although sound itself is a continuum, we give arbitrary names like a, b, c, etc to certain sounds.  also, we represent music using musical notation (and, of course, there are other notations than the conventional one) but at least anyone who can read the notation can reproduce the sound on their piano, violin, etc or even by whistling! 

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TreizeVents, sounds to me that you are incredibly harsh on yourself. I think most Brits moving to France would be delighted to have your competence in French.   

Your issues with writing could stem from a self-imposed mental block. Are your French friends the intellectual types? If they are, I’d say –stuff them (linguistically speaking, of course[;-)]).  

Remember that French is not your mother tongue, so there is no point in comparing your written skills to theirs. There is no harm in working towards ‘perfection’ but it seems to me that you have already achieved a good level to communicate effectively in enough registers and hence in your daily life in France. You can only progress.  

Perhaps you can try an exercise we used to do in the UK. Get yourself  a few ‘’Audiolivres’’ from a public library or Mediatheque on subjects you enjoy and do ‘’Dictee’’ at your own pace, using short excerpts. You will need to get the book of the audiolivre to enable you to check. Don’t take it too seriously but the exercise of transcribing what you hear can help increase your confidence in writing French generally. As your confidence in written French increases, you will also find yourself more confident in expressing yourself in a wider range of registers. In this manner, Dictee is both a passive (listening) and active (written) exercise so it can really help. If you find it boring, then it probably wouldn’t work for you but it works for some.

Allez, COURAGE!

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I'm fascinated with 13 V's "registers".  It had never occurred to me, but it's absolutely true that conversing with my rural neighbours requires a completely different mindset and vocabulary from that used when dealing with more "bourgeois" friends.  These last have pointed out to me on occasion that I have just used an expression that is simply not said.  But my neighbours say it all the time! 
I can see that it's not very sophisticated to end every phrase with "hein?" (would that be a bit like "innit"?), but saying "l'oncle à Jean-Pierre", or that so-&-so is living "définitivement" (12/12) in their former holiday home seem to be "out" in polite society, too.  [8-)]  And as for uttering any swear words in front of one's posher friends - forget it.  "Mince!" or "Flute!" seem about as far as a foreign woman can be permitted to go.

I suppose it would be as bizarre for me to hear an educated French person, who spoke fluent English, saying: "I'm going down me mam's" (perfectly correct in its place - before anyone jumps on me!), as it is when my French-Canadian sister-in-law says, with her strong foreign accent: "I am bushed".

Angela

 

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I'm on slightly shaky ground here - it's been a long time! Any corrections gratefully received!

They aren't quite registers in the English sense (though French has those as well) but different kinds of language with different vocabularies and grammatical structures. In schools and colleges we tend to learn 'received' French, Français soutenu, whereas people habitually speak a different, vernacular form, Français familier. So in 'soutenu' you drive to work in une voiture, but at the café you talk about ma bagnole. You talk to your boss about travail, and your mate, his bulot, and so on. This used to cause me problems watching tv/movies because the heard language didn't match the subtitles. Of course, the dialogue was in Français familier and the subtitles soutenu.

That is probably too simple, and quite possibly wrong - can anyone shed light?

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Very true, though I didn't know the official term for it.  I was only thinking this morning, as I was nursing a stiff neck, that a French person of whatever level would almost never say "J'irai chez le medecin", but would go to the "toubib" (?sp); ditto with "boulot" for work, "boite" for office.  

Yet for anything medical they tend to use absolutely the correct medical terminology: "otite" instead of earache, "torticolli" (?sp) instead of "stiff neck", "infarctus" instead of heart attack...

I'm not sure about the instances you quote, Dick, having different grammatical structures though. They seem to be words used generally throughout the country.  It'd be the *regional* languages (?dialects), such as "picard", "poitevin" etc that would have those, wouldn't it?  In the same way as Yorkshire, Geordie and so on?

Angela

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I would say that I am somewhere between B1 and B2.

I have been here for about 18 months (with about 4 1/2 spent back in UK) I have very few English friends here and see them very rarely so I only ever get to speak French, however as I live and work alone in a non residential area I dont actually get much chance to practice day to day.

When I arrived I had already taken two years of evening class (I got an unclassified at school 32 years ago) but due to my old business only got to about 50% of the lessons.

It took me a very very long time to find a French teacher but it was worth it, I have been doing roughly 4 hours of lessons a week for the last year (not counting a 4 month break in UK).

I am very pleased with the progress that I have made and think that I would be much further ahead if I were working with others.

One thing that has been usefull is my membership of A.V.F. and local randonee clubs which gives me more opportunity to socialise.

I know some others in this region that despite living here for up to ten years cannot even count to 20.

I will never be fluent and dont even count myself as fluent in English any more!

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