Time taken to become fluent?

[Cat]

Prompted by some comments in the finding a job in France post, I started wondering how long it has taken people to become fluent in French.

I moved to France with basic O'level French, little used and mostly forgotten, and had done the  Michel Thomas tapes for beginners, and then improvers, before arrival.  Even so I had a very limited command of the language.

Despite living with Mr Cat (who is French) for two and a half years, and speaking nothing but French with him, I'm still nowhere near fluent.  I take weekly french lessons, watch French TV and have a pretty good vocabulary, but I feel that my grammar is quite poor.  I am understood when I speak French, and can understand about 90% of spoken French, but still feel that I am at the conversational level of a 3 year old French child.

How have others managed?  Can I ever expect to be fluent?

 

[5-element]

Cat - Your post could practically have been written by Mr.5-element. As his French OH, and knowing what he is going through, first I want to congratulate you for trying so hard. This is very commendable, as I am sure many on this forum will agree...

He, too, thought it would take him 6 months to be fluent. He arrived with a good command already, and having a very sociable disposition, could speak at length, understand quite a lot,reading l'Equipe and Midi-Libre daily, watching French TV exclusively - he and I however, seldom speak French - I just find it too artificial and it makes me feel like I am working if we do...LOL...

I think your question about can you expect to be fluent, might have something to do with your personal abilities, but also with your age. I have run some French language and conversation groups for English speakers, have taught one-to-one, worked in a language school. For the past 5 years in France, most of the people I have tried to help with French have been retired, i.e. "older". I have no doubt now that, the older you are, the harder it is to learn a language. I learned English when I was 20-something, total immersion as I arrived in London and had a job, shared a flat with English people, and refused to mix with other French for several years. I was practically fluent within 6 months to a year BUT...it was because I was 20 years old.

My husband sometimes despair. He is a born communicator, and a writer, so, the ability to manipulate language is crucial to him. He is very involved in our local, French community, on the committee of associations, was president of one, has long chats with his French  mates in cafes, goes to unruly meetings and even speaks there, can even make a speech introduce a speaker in a public place, and can understand most of what anyone says. His vocabulary is astonishing. BUT... like you, his grammar is poor, in spite of regular French lessons in a class (not with me!), and although he can have lonf flaming rows in French, in person or on the phone, he just cannot write intelligibly - either emails, or letters. This, in spite of being an ex-academic. He is very depressed about it, as he feels he will never be able to use French like he uses English. He feels like he misses out on lots of the subtleties, and some in-depth contact which is language-dependent.

 You don't say what kind of contacts you have with French speakers (Mr. Cat does not count here!). Sometimes I feel that one way to make a lot of progress is to have many heart-to-heart talks with people. But there again, if it is a person who likes you and knows you, they are bound to make allowances and to understand you even when you make mistakes, and not to correct you.

It sounds as if you are "younger" - so you might be able to get there. Just persevere! Especially if the level you are trying to achieve is a working level of French. If you have a good teacher, he/she should be able to identify exactly where are the specific blind spots that you have grammatically. Is it the use of imparfait/passe compose? Is it pronouns? Is it subjunctive? Conditional? Then you do LOADS of exercises on those specific areas until you can integrate them so that rightful use becomes just a reflex action. What does Mr. Cat think about your French?

 

 

[Teamedup]

How long is a piece of string question, eh!

I haven't got the 'ear' for language. My husband has. Some people, even older ones will be fluent within a year maybe sooner, such is the nature of this gift. Or you can be here a life time and still talk like vache espagnole. 

I don't think that it has that much to do with the desire to learn either.

 

[Benjamin]

I've been in and out of France since 1992 and have now been permanently resident for 22 months.

I always think of myself in the same way that many of us think of call centre workers in India. I can just about speak the language but certain French people have difficulty in understanding me [:P]

[5-element]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

 Some people, even older ones will be fluent within a year maybe sooner, such is the nature of this gift.

[/quote]

Well, I am open to believing this TU, but I have yet to see it. None of the dozens and dozens of  older English speakers I have met in the past 6 years in France, have become "fluent" within a year or even three. The ones who are fluent have been here for 20 or 30 years (Americans mainly) and have worked here, had families here, and arrived here well before retirement age. Perhaps "fluency" is open to definition. If it is, to be understood in casual social situations, then most people do manage that eventually. But fluency of the kind that means being "like a native", i.e. being able to pass for French, that is another matter altogether.

And you are right about speaking like a vache espagnole. A (French) friend of mine moved to London in 1967 and is still there. 40 years ago!. It is only in the past 5 or 10 years that she has lost her thick French accent - yet she is fluent, but could never be mistaken for a native Londoner. So that demolishes my tentative definition of fluency!

How long is a piece of string, this could be applied to the concept of fluency too maybe.

[Clair]

Cat, Mr Clair never speaks French to me... [:-))]

He watches French TV with subtitles and I am told his French has improved tremendously since he started to work and had no choice but to communicate in French to his work colleagues...

5-elements has got it right, it's easier when you're younger and the immersion technique described is definitely the one to go for!

I went over to England at 19 having studied English since the age of 12, but could not understand a word for weeks and kept asking people to repeat everything they said... I don't know why or when it happened, but things just started to make sense and I know I could relate the sounds to the words I had been taught...

Persevere, don't make learning too formal, apply it to everyday situations that you can recognise and it'll come... [:D]

[mint]

i'm completely with tu here.  i do think some people have a knack or whatever you want to call it for languages. 

for what it's worth, i think you need a good "ear" (like a musician) and not mind making a fool of yourself.

i also think it helps if you NEVER translate from one language to the other (just try and understand the language and make sense of it in its own right without saying to yourself, "what's that in english?")

i speak several languages but only write in english.  i will write in french and not worry about errors but then, so far, i've only written to the bank and to edf and to hotels and so forth and i don't think any of this counts as "writing" as the letters are merely requests!

i can't wait to spend more time in france as i want to test myself to see when i can hold a proper conversation without resorting to the dictionary that i carry everywhere.  i do find the french people, on the whole, very tolerant and, if you ask them how to say something, they will go to no end of trouble to help you.  i remember asking a staff member of britanny ferries how to pronounce the french for kettle and she went through "bouilloire" with me serveral times until she was satisfied that i was saying it more or less in a manner that would be comprehensible to a french person!

one of the main reasons why i want to relocate to france is that i will then have a whole new language and culture to learn about!

[samdebretagne]

I moved here three and a half years ago not speaking a word of French, and I'd say it took me a good two years to reach a level that I felt was fairly fluent.  And this was by doing intensive French classes at the University for 20 hours per week for both of those years.  But my goal was to have the highest level of French possible so I could work in a technical field and not have people notice I was a foreigner, not just so I could buy flowers at the market or say hello to my neighbor once a week, so I really think it depends on what your own personal goals are.  I now work as a translator, doing mostly oral intrepreting from French to English and English to French, but sometimes written work from French to English.  Even though I feel that I speak French fluently, it will probably be years (if ever) before I feel comfortable enough to translate texts from English into French - there are just so many expressions and whatnot that you can only learn by spending years in a country.  I mean, I could probably do it now and have it make sense, but it just wouldn't be written the way a French person would.

PS. MOH is French, but unfortunately we never speak French together unless in situations where it would be rude not to (for example, when we're with other non-English speakers).  Funnily enough, it's him that has the problem speaking to me in French - he just can't do it, he says it doesn't feel natural.

[Loiseau]

I think you need to keep your ear alert (I was going to put cocked, but I bet that doesn't come out right!) for turns of phrase that come up a lot, and that you could subsequently integrate into your own conversations.  Or listen for a French person to utter something that you have always been convinced (wrongly) was said otherwise - and remember how it *should* be said in future!

The most useful thing is to learn everyday phrases, in the situations they are used. "Ne quittez pas" on the phone for Hold on a sec; "c'est pas évident" for It's not easy; "Je t'accompagne" for I'll give you a lift; etc.

Another breakthrough point is to listen to the *rhythm* of spoken French, and the way that the stresses are almost always equal on every syllable of the word (rather than, as normally in English, on the first syllable). If you can manage to replicate that, you sound more fluent instantly.  And also notice the curious way that, when reading aloud, the French voice *rises* rather than falls at a comma; not dropping till it gets to the full point at the end.  As TU says, it's like having to have a *musical* ear.

I do wonder if the ease with which expats can obviously now tune into UK TV programmes is a drawback to learning the language.  Some friends of mine used to find that the sheer repetition of French adverts, and their slogans coming up on screen made a lot of French phrases sink in without effort.  And they used to find it useful watching programmes like "Qui veut etre milliardaire", when you understand the format (Who Wants to be a Millionaire, obviously), and see the questions written down, as well as hear them spoken over and over again.

Having been drilled in every known part of French verbs, regular and irregular, at school in the 1950s, I am considered fluent (and often, even, taken for French), but deep down I know that I don't always manage to say something exactly how I first envisaged. I get there, but by another route, if you know what I mean. 

Angela

[cooperlola]

It is definately easier for some than for others - the musical ear thing rings true!  Good mimics also make good language learners.  It's certainly tougher to learn in later life but it's perfectly possible and so well worth the effort.  I'd also say "go for it" because if you continue to believe you are at a disadvantage and are perhaps shy of trying out what you believe to be poor French, it will take you a lot longer to learn.  Confidence is all.

[DZ]

Cat - do not despair - you will become fluent!  It happened to me in English - one day I realized that I could express absolutely everything I wanted to and could write as well as any "native speaker" (but accent in a language is an entirely different matter.  It drives me mad that after over 20 years in England I am still asked which country I come from!).  You live in France and your OH is French, so it will just happen if you persevere.  It's way more difficult (impossible?) for people like me, who don't live in France, but I am not giving up and use every spare minute to learn French.

Best of luck!

[TWINKLE]

I understood basically everything that was being said to me and got by quite well after 6 months.  I started dreaming in french after 2 years - this is the 'sign' of fluency according to the man down the pub.  I had nobody but French people to talk with (apart from hubby who speaks english quite well) and only had french TV on hand at the time.  I moved here when I was 23 and was already working with a French speaking band and I'm a chatty gal......so that helped. 

It's like anything - the more you do it the better you are at it.

[Patf]

Yes I agree with the the "musical ear" theory too. Another way to become fluent, even though it may be temporary, is complete submersion, such as happens if you have to go into hospital for 2-3 weeks. This happened to me and it was a case of sink or swim. Chatting to my room mates was very interesting, the motivation was strong and the rewards good. Not that I'm advocating you go into hospital. But there may be courses using this method. Pat.ps just seen Twinkle's post which is a similar idea.

[Teamedup]

samdebretagne, you have obviously worked hard at learning french, and you must have the talent. But some of us just cannot do that, doesn't matter how hard I try my ear is simply not there.

I ALWAYS have to ask en haut or en bas, my ear just cannot distinguish in mid conversation the difference between dessus and dessous. Ok when it is said slowly I can, but in conversation, I cannot.

                                                                                                                                                          

 

I have known people who have said that they are fluent and they aren't, there are many nuances of this though, from getting by, doing OK, speaking well, being fluent, and speaking like a native and I think for lots of us it is very hard to know where we are really. I do know that I don't actually distinguish which language I am listening to or responding to any more, a question of comprehension, if I understand, I understand............... and have no idea what I dream in.

[Bugsy]

This is a good thread and has confirmed what I've felt for a frustratingly long time. It's about ears and tuning in. I'm in the 'get by' bracket mainly down to my deafness. On a 'one to one' in a quiet area I do quite well. Change that to a group with several people talking or a noisy environment and I just lose the plot completely, it's so frustrating.

[cooperlola]

Eavesdropping is the toughest!

[Loiseau]

PatF has a good point about courses.  
I know a couple in the Vendee who have moved there permanently from Yorkshire, and the wife is interested in lace-making. So she joined a local group for that, and has made great strides with the language.

Another friend put a notice in the local boulangerie offering to give English conversation in exchange for French, and not only made great progress with her French (going on shopping trips etc), but made new friends into the bargain.

I also found over the years that, although I don't live in France permanently, new bits of my life (having children, discussing childhood ailments, renovating a house, writing and publishing) suddenly plunged me into totally new areas of vocabulary.  Chatting on these topics with French friends, artisans, colleagues, interviewees etc obliges you to keep moving forward.

Even if it's at the level of joining the local "Club du 3e Age" for their suppers or outings, that would be a good way to progress while doing something you enjoy doing (eating, drinking, going on trips)!

Angela

 

[Dick Smith]

Only robust souls should consider joining les citoyens du troisieme age. They are like the Wild Bunch with extra attitude and out-of-control HRT.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I know I bang on about it, but I get frustrated when people I meet

lament their poor French and then go on in the next sentence to discuss

the previous night's UK telly programes. French TV is pretty awful

compared to the dear old Beeb et al (though from reading the TV

listings our guests leave behind with their old newspapers, British

television is making a big effort in this respect with programs like

"Celebrity Burping," "101 Funniest Haemarrhoid Operations" and "ASBO

Bingo"), but does have the huge plus of being in French. The more

French one hears the better.

Personally I found it easier to go at the language by hacking through

the grammer; my wife went more for the aural approach. Both have their

plus points. We still take lessons - our teacher says that she doesn't

think that these are necessary any longer, but we disagree. We seldom

go more than a few days without finding something we want to clarify

with her.

[Cat]

Wow, thanks for all the replies, and the advice.

I suppose I'm a bit of a perfectionist.  Many of my English friends think that I am already fluent in French, but they are comparing my level with their's.  I know that I will never be able to pass as French, I just don't have the ear for the accent, and will always sound English no matter how hard I try.  I have tried and tried to do the French "U" sound, but can't, and so steer well away from talking about necks and bottoms.  Like TU, I find the words for underneath and over tricky,  for the same reason.  I can't roll my Rs either.  I agree that people who begin speaking a second language before around 25 have a far higher chance of attaining fluency. I'm well past that age, but not yet 50, so perhaps all is not completely lost.

I have lots of French friends, but find one to one conversations far easier that group discussions, as although I understand what they are saying, I can't express myself quickly and fully enough, and the conversation won't wait for me.  I rarely get to converse in English, but when I do get the chance I tend to go for it like a mad thing, as if to make up for my lack of  grown up, witty conversations in French.

Like Mr 5-element, my written French is a nightmare, thank goodness for dictionaries, MS Word spell and grammar check, babelfish and www.wordreference.com and its forums.

I always struggle with genders in French, which of course means I struggle with nouns and their adjectives .  I used to be worried about this, and hold back from speaking French as I was afraid of making a fool of myself.  After a while though, I realised that I would never get anywhere by staying silent.  So now I just go for it.

People that know me well make allowances, and Mr Cat understands my French perfectly, but only because he knows my ways and can read the "shorthand".  Many people don't like to correct me when I make a mistake, as they have understood what I was trying to say, and don't want to discourage me.  I would prefer that they point out my errors though, and have told them this, otherwise I will go on and on making the same mistakes.

I just hope that when I look back on this in a few years time, I will be able to laugh and think that I was worrying about nothing, and that it was just a question of time.  I certainly intend to keep on trying.

 

 

[Anton Redman]

<< I know that I will never be able to pass as French >>

On a good day I am asked if I am from Belgium or Spain when I meet somebody I have previously telephoned which is progress. Against that I could not even remember the French for bite at the Dentist. Why do language courses alway have 'At The Hotel' - I have watched monolingual people succesfully check into hotels where they cannot speak or read a word of the local language  in four continents.

Every now and again something happens and I can just about reply as fast as I can in English. Recently in Brico Depot on being asked to clarify commune after giving post code. Ste Martin du Laye ou Ste Martin Du Bois I just about got out Tete du Bois mais Ste Martin du Laye.

I would not get to hung up on the gender thing. La Livre and Le Livre make a difference but Orange (M or F) please ( one is the fruit one is the colour) once you are past the first thouand words most French people are not sure. I think the age thing is about knowing that the thing you sit down on is a the thing you sit down on. It is not a chair,sofa, armchair it is the thing. If you have some exposure to any other language before puberty it helps but I have known people become fluent in Russien in their fifties.

[Loiseau]

For that "u" sound, I once read a very good description of how to do it:

Put your  lips in the position they would be if you were going to say "oooo"
Then SAY "eeeee", while keeping them in the original position.

Comes out spot on!

There was a good book called "Some of my best friends are French" by Colin Corder, which had some excellent practical hints for how to speak the language better.  i.e. learn a few conversational phrases about the weather etc, and then use them over and over in short conversations with DIFFERENT people, rather than trying to hold a long conversation with a single person!  And he recommended  perfecting the phrase "Je me débrouille" (I get by), so that whern somebody complimented you during one of the short conversations, you could blush modestly and smash them with that killer phrase.  Whereby they would redouble their compliments on your language skills!

Sadly Corder died soon after it was published.  I have just done a search on amazon.co.uk and it is listed, but only through other dealers, which makes me think it's out of print, though obtainable via those other sources.

Angela

[mint]

i am truly glad, anton, that you don't think anyone is past learning after they are 50 because i fully intend to "just do it" as the nike ad used to say!

the other dubious gender phrase that comes to mind is "le tour" for the tour de france but "la tour" for the tour eiffel.

loiseau, i shall remember "je me debouille".  this is my sort of favourite ploy, ie, learn a few coloquial expressions really well and throw them into the conversation at every opportunity.  for example, "ah, oui alors" for when you want to agree with someone or "ah, non alors" for when you wish to express disagreement.  or, you could smile broadly and say "bien entendu" or shrug the famous gallic shrug and say "pas exactement".  that's a lot of conversation, see, agreeing or disagreeing!

i used to do this years ago when i first came to live in wales.  i learned how to say good morning/afternoon, how are you, the weather is fine/rainy/windy etc.  i'd go into the, say, bank and greet people with a few words.  then, my husband would go in the next day and he'd be complimented on how well his wife spoke the "language of heaven"

i am a terrible fraud but, i reckon that if i play the part for long enough, i'd eventually BECOME the part! 

[Loiseau]

Well, 17, sounds as if you are well along the Corder-recommended path!

Yes, of course the Gallic shrug, the exasperated pout with the phhhhhhhh noise, and what my husband used to call the "Vendee nod" (raising the chin sharply - a sort of nod in reverse - as a greeting from a farmer who was on a tractor the other side of the hedge) are vital weapons in the language armoury.  [;-)]

Angela

[mint]

angela

you've given me a lovely giggle, thanks!