A Question of Grammar....................

[Bugsy]

Can someone please advise as to what is correct in relation to the use of the letter ' i ' when used as in "I went out today". Several posters on here would write that as "i went out today".

Now it's a long time since I attended school but has it changed or is it perhaps due to a broken shift-key ?

[Just Katie]

Who are you having a dig at Mr B?

[:)]

[Will]

i fink its probberly laziness and lack of nollij of grammer and speling... [:D]

Seriously though, the use of the upper case I for the first person singular is something I have always wondered about. It seems to attach an undue importance to one's self. After all, you only write 'He' when referring to Jesus... 

[Bugsy]

No one in particular Katie, look at some of the posts.

It's a genuine question........................

[Dick Smith]

I am pleased to report that there are no changes in that requirement, BB.

It is covered (in English schools) in Key Stage 2, which means that the majority of pupils should have mastered it by about the age of 11 at the latest.

(I looked this up on the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority website and found this, by the way: 'Identity common spleiing patterns in letter strings [identify common spelling patterns]' - and this 'Use punctuation to make a sentence make sence' - made me larf!)

For is it not written, "Mind your Ps and Qs"?

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Will "]

After all, you only write 'He' when referring to Jesus... 

[/quote]

I don't.

And you know full well, Will, that it's because it's a proper pronoun!

But I don't know why [me] doesn't follow the same rule.

And it is written "Many a slip 'twixt cup and lip"

[Cat]

It is funny though, the problems that arise when using I, me and myself.

As in...

he was looking for Sam and myself

but Sam and me had gone to the pub

And sometimes, even when it's right it sounds wrong...

So it's goodnight from Sam and me

 

[Dick Smith]

But it did lead to one of the great TV lines of all time:

"The identity of the Official

whose alleged responsibility for this hypothetical

oversight has been the subject of recent discussion,

is NOT shrouded in quite such impenetrable obscurity

as certain previous disclosures may have led you to

assume, but not to put too fine a point on it, the

individual in question is, it may surprise you to

learn, one whom you present interlocutor is in the

habit of defining by means of the perpendicular

pronoun."

"It was I, Minister."

For is it not written "Eat it up, it'll put hairs on your chest."?

[Iceni]

[quote user="Will "]

After all, you only write 'He' when referring to Jesus... 

[/quote]

Don't forget Brian.

John

not

[Miki]

Yes, poor Brian.

"Romani ite domum"

Poor Brian had to write his wrongs out, rightly, a hundred times [:)]

So perhaps any offenders of the  i error, should be made to write out I me and my in capitals  a hundred times and to serve a month on the Living Albania forum, as further humiliation.

That'll learn 'em [:)]

[Dago]

[quote user="Miki"]Yes, poor Brian.

"Romani ite domum"

Poor Brian had to write his wrongs out, rightly, a hundred times [:)]

So perhaps any offenders of the  i error, should be made to write out I me and my in capitals  a hundred times and to serve a month on the Living Albania forum, as further humiliation.

That'll learn 'em [:)]

[/quote]

bUT i dON'T sPEAK aLBANIAN.....

[IMG]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/dago49/Dago3.jpg[/IMG]

[Miki]

BB and Smithy will be along in a minute to put that sentence right and I hope you get two hundred lines !!

Don't speak Albanian meself but i (careless there !!) know a man who does.................... that counts [:)]

[KathyC]

[quote user="Cat"]

It is funny though, the problems that arise when using I, me and myself.

As in...

he was looking for Sam and myself

but Sam and me had gone to the pub

And sometimes, even when it's right it sounds wrong...

So it's goodnight from Sam and me

 

[/quote]

I'm sure that you know this but it's quite easy to see which is correct. All you need to do is take "Sam" out of the sentences. Therefore;

he was looking for myself - wrong

but me had gone to the pub - wrong

So it's goodnight from me - right

Here endeth the first lesson.

 

[Cat]

That's how I was taught it too Kathy, to use the same structure that I would if I had removed the other people/person from the statement, and also never to use "myself" unless "I" had already been introduced beforehand (so to speak) [8-)]

When I was at school we weren't taught the rules of grammar (hence my struggle with learning French grammar) but although I might not know the correct terms, I do know if a thing sounds right or not.

Just don't get me started on there, their and they're [Www]

[KathyC]

[quote user="Cat"]

That's how I was taught it too Kathy, to use the same structure that I would if I had removed the other people/person from the statement, and also never to use "myself" unless "I" had already been introduced beforehand (so to speak) [8-)]

When I was at school we weren't taught the rules of grammar (hence my struggle with learning French grammar) but although I might not know the correct terms, I do know if a thing sounds right or not.

Just don't get me started on there, their and they're [Www]

[/quote]

It sounds as though you picked up more grammar rules than you might have thought. The trouble with things sounding right, I find, is that so many people write and speak incorrectly nowadays (don't start me on the BBC!) that you can start to question things that you know perfectly well to be correct!

[Loiseau]

[quote user="Will "]

...the use of the upper case I for the first person singular is something I have always wondered about. It seems to attach an undue importance to one's self. After all, you only write 'He' when referring to Jesus... 

[/quote]

It is odd. 
But we get off lightly compared to German-speaking countries, where every noun has to have a capital letter!

Angela

[Dick Smith]

It's only a convention, after all. In the 18th Century we capitalled almost all nouns, see anything by Dean Swift, and it is still done in parody. The important thing is that at any given time the conventions are observed, for the easier comprehension of text by readers if nothing else. After all, an unpunctuated sentence is a nightmare to read, and I must admit that when faced with one I don't bother. Punctuation is there as an aid to clarity.

[Thibault]

And don't get me started on you're and your.............

[Will]

It's a much-repeated moan that it is the educational system, and the teachers, of today and the recent past, that are responsible for many people's poor grammar and spelling. I have just struggled to read a posting by somebody who gave a hint as to his/her age, which indicated they would have received their education in the 1950s.This message contained no upper case letters and just about every punctuation mark was wrongly used. So, does that mean that things are really no different, or that somebody is either telling porkies or impersonating another user (which can be easily done on this forum), or that faced with a computer keyboard all thoughts of proper punctuation etc fly out of the window?

[Dick Smith]

For an example of the use of a capital letter to differentiate meanings I offer this quote from Alan Coren's coulmn in today's Times:

'Oh, look, there is a new Home Office initiative. Unless, by the time

this gets to press, the subs will have corrected that to New Home

Office initiative; since that is what we might well, by tomorrow, have,

given the volatility of events in Marsham Street.'

Economy of style and clarity of meaning.

And that should be etc., surely?

For it is said "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

[Will]

I have always believed (a belief backed up by the style books of most decent publications) that a capital letter is something to be used sparingly. Apart from its position at the beginning of a sentence, or to denote a proper noun, there are few other valid uses, so when it is employed it denotes something really special or gives a particular emphasis. Dick/Will's example shows this rather well.

The other punctuation mark that, as I was taught in my journalistic training, needs to be used sparingly is the exclamation point, but that is opening up a whole new can of worms (I'd love to see the style books for certain women's magazines).

Edit - yes Dick, from the grammar teacher's viewpoint abbreviations should indeed use a full point. But this is something that seems to be going out of fashion, and many style books advise not using full points with abbreviations, particularly with those like etcetera, for the sake of clarity. For some reason, on publications where I have worked, i.e. and e.g. usually seem to escape this debatable convention. When I get to the office I will have a look in The Times style book. The convention seems to be gaining validity thanks to the so-called auto-correct feature in some computer programs that assume, because you have put a full point after etc., that the next word should be capitalised as the start of a new sentence. Yet another discussion point - should computers be allowed to influence our grammar etc.?

Other things we were taught at school, like never splitting infinitives, or never starting sentences with 'and' or 'but' are also perfectly acceptable in 'good' journalistic style. Another example of this is the verbless sentence, a very interesting instance of which features in your example of good journalism from Mr Coren and the subs' desk of The Times (although it contains three subsidiary verbs, there is no main verb associated with a subject or object to hold it together - yet it makes perfect sense). Interesting that I should use a capital for 'The' in the newspaper name - that again is a journalistic practice with which many may disagree, but it is part of a proper noun, e.g. The Times, The Netherlands, etc.

Further edit - The Times' style book prefers not to use abbreviations - it says that words like Street, Professor etc should always be written in full. But where abbreviations are used, because the use of the abbreviation rather than the full form is normal, as with etc, Mrs, or Capt (military ranks need to be abbreviated in certain instances), they are written without the full point. Also, The Times recommends that when referring to God, Jesus, Muhammad (Times spelling) etc it is always He rather than he. Though one style dictat I shall ignore is that in the first mention in any story, Rupert Murdoch must always be referred to as 'Rupert Murdoch, chairman and chief executive of The News Corporation, parent company of The Times'. Note that although a title, like Professor, is capitalised when used as part of a person's name, when the text refers to just the job title, even Mr Murdoch's, it is always lower case. That's another style point with which many amateur writers would disagree.

It's not as easy as you may think to be a journalist. Even the Daily Star has a style book.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Will"]

It's not as easy as you may think to be a journalist. Even the Daily Star has a style book.

[/quote]

I imagine it must be pretty bare [:P]

[Clair]

[quote user="Bugbear"]Can someone please advise as to what is correct in relation to the use of the letter ' i ' when used as in "I went out today". Several posters on here would write that as "i went out today".[/quote]

Personaly, I find the lack of punctuation and capital letters as well as the the mis-use of ' and, very annoying. I struggle to comprehend the meaning of the post and get irritated by the lack of clarity. I find that I have to read the post several times. Mostly I don't bother any more and just ignore the post altogether.

Let me add that I am not having a dig at any individual on the forum, but my thinking is that if the poster cannot bother to get his or her point across, I cannot be bothered to read it...

[cooperlola]

As a little aside about punctuation, capital letters and computers.  If you were taught to touch type, as I was, it is extremely irritating that some of the punctuation, plus the way the shift lock is organised, on a computer key board, is different from conventional typewriters .  It's so instinctive to me, that I often find I have typed a whole sentence in capitals by mistake!  Maybe this is why some posters of a certain generation just ignore the capitals and type away without them?  Just a thought.  But it does irritate me - I find the posts in nothing but lower case quite hard to read too.

The thing that really gets my goat - "could of" and "should of" etc instead of could 've or have and should 've or have!  Grrr...

[Christine Animal]

Someone who adopted a couple of dogs from us and has become a very good friend had not had a computer until very recently.  She has got on to internet (now should that have a capital I?) and regularly sends me emails.

It is new to her and she is having a go.  At the beginning the typing was far from perfect, but that did not matter to me, it's what's behind it that counts.

Just to say that not everyone is a dab hand at typing and/or spelling...