Gros mots

[Chancer]

Following on from the Sarkozy thread I want to start a discussion on the dangers/problems of translating swear words.

The French "C" word was discussed in the other thread, to me it is innocous and in daily use (it means fool/idiot/damned to me) but I note that the swear filter removes it.

Tonight on Arte there is a program titled "F**k the war", I have often noticed foreigners using the "F" word in (to me) inapropriate circumstances, a couple of examples:

I had my friends daughter stay with me in England when I found her a summer job to improve her English, she had a badge that said "I dont give a f**k" or something similar, I advised her not to wear it as she ran the risk of being arrested if someone complained to a policeman, she thought that I was mad as it was her favorite badge (she was a skateboarder).

In my town (in France) I saw a relatively respectable married couple walking along the footpath with their two young children, he was wearing a T-shirt with huge letters (a la Frankie goes to hollywood) saying "F**K OFF!"

Now to me the closest equivalent of the "F" word is the French "P" word however I often hear it spoken by women in front of children so either I am mistaken or once again there is a difference of level.

I once dropped an important piece of a switch that I was repairing for a neighbour, I exclaimed the "M" word (instead of the "P" word) as his daughter was there, he told me off yet I have since heard him and his wife using the "P" word as an exclamation in front of her.

Can anyone enlighten me and is the swear filter set too low for French gros mots?

[raindog]

French swear words are in such common use they've lost their strength.

When Sarkozy said casse toi pauvre c*n it didn't seem that bad to me. You hear much more than that on low budget French tv films.

It's probably combinations of words that are strongest.

Be carefull where you use p*tain de c*n de m*rde for example.

[Tourangelle]

Me and many of my colleagues are furious Sarko said that, as teachers, how are we supposed to convince the kids that they shouldn't use that sort of language to us.  He's irresponsible, (but getting more and more unpopular)![8-|]

[raindog]

Don't blame Sarko for kid's bad language blame French tv.

[Frenchie]

I agree with Tourangelle , as teachers, all year long we try to explain to our students that they must try and control their language , even when it s used in a " friendly" way.. and now.. the one who's supposed to give an example, the one who represents the French Republic says " casse toi pauv c*n " !! [blink][blink]

The students have rapidly picked it, and now some say so as a "joke" ... [:@]

I have the highest idea of what a president is and how he/she should behave..

And he was the one who said to Mme Royal in their face to face debate on French TV " A president must keep his self control in any circumstances Mme " .............................................................. [blink]

Makes me angry!

 

[Chancer]

I guess that he is as human as the rest of us, perhaps he was also set up in front of the cameras, if I did not want to shake his hand I would not offer mine first therefore no need for refusal "you soil me" etc. Sorry I cant remember the exact words.

Tourangelle, do you teach French or English?

[Tourangelle]

[quote user="J.R."]

Tourangelle, do you teach French or English?

[/quote]

English, why have I made an awful mistake somewhere? (where's the emoticon for paranoid when I need it????[:$]). My degree's an English one, in French, but my teaching qualification is French, to teach English!

[Chancer]

Paranoid[:$]

Ah bless!

You could try "me and many of my colleagues"[;-)]

It followed on from Pads repeatedly writing "me and my friend"[:)]

[Will]

[quote user="J.R."]

You could try "me and many of my colleagues"[;-)]

[/quote]

Except that, in the context Tourangelle used it, it should have been "Many of my colleagues and I". (For reference: as it is the subject of the sentence, you use 'I' instead of 'me', and although not grammatically incorrect, it is bad form in formal English to put yourself in front of others).

[Cat]

Except that, I think you may have misunderstood J.R's post Will, the wink kind of gives it away [;-)]

 

[Tourangelle]

ahhh, but is it wrong or is it taking into account the informal oralised nature of internet forums?  Do they same rules apply here as to conventional written English?  Am I seeking to provide a model of perfect English, or rather join in with the register of the discussion?  How different is it to some authors who write would of instead of would have?  A méditer...

[raindog]

You can't wriggle out of that easily Tourangelle [;-)] consider your wrist slapped.....

[Will]

Sorry Cat, I knew exactly what point JR was making - but in wanting to go one stage further in the pedantic stakes I had to make the correction.

Tourangelle, there is only correct English and incorrect English. Lazy English students often say that grammar doesn't matter in informal use (which could apply to speech or Internet forums, though I personally wouldn't agree). But "Me and...", although widely used, is not correct in any circumstance.

 

[Cat]

Sorry, me and my big mouth [;-)]

[Tourangelle]

I'd get off that horse if I were you, it's a bit too high.  Or start changing all your doesn'ts to does nots, as one should in proper written English. I don't agree, grammar is not static, you only have to read up on the history of language to realise that is an ever changing and evolving area.  Take the verbs learn or dream.  The correct past form used to be dreamt, learnt, now we accept dreamed, learned... So what?  People used to go on about split infinitives, nobody bothers so much these days. We don't have an equivalent of the Academie Française, thank goodness and most people manage to distinguish between a formal piece of writing or a speech and an internet forum.

[Will]

Nice one Cat - I like it [:D] [:D]

Now who's on a high horse? Do you really mean that 'doesn't' is incorrect in written English? That's something I would certainly dispute. Just as I would dispute the inference that niceties like spelling and grammar are only important in formal language.

Of course language changes. Neither do any of us get it right all the time, I know I make plenty of errors and can just imagine that you may be compiling a list of them from past contributions to the forum. When you find any then I will wilingly hold my hands up to my mistakes, and not justify an error by the specious argument that 'it doesn't matter on an internet forum'. 

You may, as a teacher, regard knowing the correct use of the accusative case of the personal pronoun as irrelevant and the mark of a pompous old git, and you may be right - though I can't speak for JR. It's just that I have to know about these things in the course of earning a living.

Edit - I wouldn't normally bother to point out errors on the forum (unlike some other users) but you did ask. JR and I were only being helpful by pointing out - as native English speakers with knowledge of correct grammar - the correct form. From what you said previously I got the impression you may not be a native English speaker, although you obviously know a lot about the language.

 

[5-element]

[quote user="J.R."]

 

 

Now to me the closest equivalent of the "F" word is the French "P" word however I often hear it spoken by women in front of children so either I am mistaken or once again there is a difference of level.

[/quote]

The French "P" word is definitely not as strong as the English "F" word J.R., no mistake about that. Our 6-year old neighbour (bless her) uses the P word frequently, encouraged by the rest of her family who might, or might not, know that it is an objectionable word. Now I can't imagine an English child, whatever its background, being left to use the F word with quite as much abandon. Or if it was, it would be quite unusual.

I have seen/heard the French P word used by public speakers, and councillors even. Again, I can't imagine the equivalent with the English F word.

[Will]

Yes, the F-word in English used to be taboo; it is used more widely now, but only after the 9pm watershed. Although you hear it being used by teens very frequently in their normal conversation, they would not use it when talking to a stranger, or to their parents or teachers. Or they may if they wanted to shock (as teens often do in any country). The French P-word has always seemed much milder, not that I know anywhere near as much about French as I have to about English. I've always thought of it as being more the equivalent of the 'female dog' word in English, especially as its literal translation is to do with women of a certain profession. Though it's not a direct equivalent of course as it seem to be used more often as an expletive. Not for use in normal polite company, but not likely to cause great offence.

 

[Ron Avery]

We learnt "mer-de" from our French teacher when she dropped the fibre crayon on the floor, although she did say it quietly, we all heard it.  One or two knew what it meant so we decided that if anyone got their homework wrong they would say "Oh mer-de!!".  Her face was a picture when the first one, by luck a little elderly lady said "Oh mer-de!!"  The teacher was quite embarassed [:$]but she did explain later that it was not a word we should use at the school[;-)].  its mer-de to overcome the filter

[raindog]

as I said earlier,

Post edited by the moderators.

Users must not post messages which contain explicit language or vulgarities (whether written in French, English or any other language)

[Loiseau]

I think the problem comes when somebody uses a swear word in the language in which he or she is not a native speaker.  It just sounds completely out of place to the native listener. 

Hence the F word in English, uttered by a French teenager, seems much worse that from the mouth of a British youth.  And the French M or P words spoken by a Brit sound much worse to a French person. 

My French-Canadian sister-in-law has picked up some dodgy British slang terms from my brother, and I find they sound really strange in her still fairly strong accent.

Angela

[Frenchie]

Anyway, the P word in French is not really  a swear word in the south, especially the south west; ask Twinkle if I'm wrong.. p****n  c*n is just something that is said in case of surprise or anger, but people call it " la virgule Toulousaine" as a joke... ( The Toulouse comma) ...

 

 

[Will]

I do like that expression, Frenchie.

I think some of the confusion comes because of the different meanings of words like that when they are used in their literal sense from when they are just exclamations.

It's just the same in English. One would say "bu**er me" in case of surprise or anger, and it's not really offensive. But exactly the same words, used as a command or request, would be far from acceptable in most circles.

 

 

[raindog]

[quote user="raindog"]as I said earlier,

Post edited by the moderators.

Users must not post messages which contain explicit language or vulgarities (whether written in French, English or any other language)

[/quote]

It's a thread about swear words. The same words I used are scattered throughout the thread. Oh well.....[8-)]

[Lou]

When I was a student in Paris and lodging with a French family, one evening early on in my stay the son of the family (probably in his early twenties) offered to take me on a drive round Paris and show me the sights.  He drove like a typical young male Parisian - ie like a madman - and every time someone cut him up or got in his way he would gesticulate and yell the P word and the C word - then come to and realise he had a young impressionable English teenager in his car and would apologise profusely each time - but seemed incapable of stopping himself yelling the words! I was a little shocked at first but it turned out to be so funny

Now I'm living in the south-west and those two words seem to be fairly common usage amongst the locals - men anyway and they don't seem to have any problem with using them liberally in "mixed company" as it were.

Or maybe they take a look at me now and realise I'm neither young nor impressionable anymore!!!

Lou