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Widowed in France


JAW123
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Hi

I was widowed three and a half years ago and one quater of my property was inherited by my two sons.  I have now decided to sell and return to the UK, after being here for 6 years.  My sons want me to have the full amount of the value of the property, I was wondering if anyone could advise me. 

Many thanks

JAW

 

 

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Hi,

So sorry to read of your predicament. I am in a very similar situation.

I was widowed last year and  am now waiting for a completion date on my  French property. This should happen in the next 3 weeks or so.

I spoke to my notaire last week as to whether or not I could have 3 separate cheques  paid into my French bank account, but I gained the impression that this was not acceptable.  My children  (they're 31 and 29!) have to give him the details of their  U.K.bank accounts so that the money can be electronically paid to them.. They will then 'gift' the money to me. As my son is the tax manager for a firm of accountants, I'm hoping that any U.K. tax problems will be easily sorted out.

Hope this is of use to you.

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HI,

   As britgirl says ,if the notaire insists on paying to your sons they can give you the money when you return to the UK. As I understand it there may be UK IHT implications only when the Donor dies within 7 years, which hopefully should not arise. If the house has been your principle residence there is no capital gains liability for you in france, and any liability of your sons should be minimal as it would be limited to 1/4 of the gain split two ways. 
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I am sorry about both of your experience Jaw and Britgirl but for  me a very interesting posting and easier to understand as it is a real life example of inheritance in France. May I just ask you a question as I would, most likely,  be in the same position (we have two sons, and no previous marriage). Do the sons get a quarter each? I always thought it would be divided by three, i.e. me one third and each of the sons one third? 

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Monika,

I am sorry to hear that you are going to be in the same position as me.  My late husband and I bought the property between us, half each.  When he passed away his half was divided into half. Therefore, half went to me and the other to my two sons (being one eighth each).  I own three quarters of the property and my sons own one quarter between them.  There will be capital gains to pay as my late husband and I converted a large barn into 2 gites before he died and I think I will have to pay CG on this.

If there is any other way I can help please let me know - I wish you well.

JAW123

 

 

 

 

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There is one other point you may wish to consider - depending on the size of your complete estate it may make sense for your sons to nominally lend you the money rather than give it to you as in the event of your death they can then take that amount back outside of your estate (as it is a debt) potentially avoiding UK IHT. The potential downside is that if they die/get divorced/ go bankrupt that money is owed to them so could be reclaimed.

Whether this is sensible will depend on the exact circumstances, ages etc. so you will want to think it through and probably take advice.

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I have a friend in a similar situation, she would like to sell her house here in France to buy a smaller property, one of the"children" is currently going through bancrupcy in the UK would she loose this portion  as ideally I think the children would like her to keep the difference in price ( not really loads of money but a difference to be sure)  can anyone shine any light on this.

 

Lilly

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This thread illustrates how really important it is to seek good advice about such matters before moving to France.  It may apply to other countries but I have no knowledge of that, but I do have experience of what this thread is about.

Normally I go into things with a real cavalier attitude, but before moving here I was persuaded (well told really) to seek advice about many things, in particular the Succession laws and the health situation as it existed 7 years ago.

It probably doesn't apply so much now as I imagine there are not that many choosing to make permanent moves to France at the moment, but if there are, or have moved here recently, for your peace of mind get good legal advice about the Succession laws here and do not try to save money by not having adequate health cover.

This is no way intended to be a criticism of any contributor to this thread because my heartfelt sympathies extend to any of you who have lost a loved one.  As it happens I was lucky in that we had good advice which we acted upon when we moved here, which was a massive help when we needed it.

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[quote user="Lilly"]

I have a friend in a similar situation, she would like to sell her house here in France to buy a smaller property, one of the"children" is currently going through bancrupcy in the UK would she loose this portion  as ideally I think the children would like her to keep the difference in price ( not really loads of money but a difference to be sure)  can anyone shine any light on this.

 

Lilly

[/quote]

        It occurs to me that a possible solution would be for the bankrupt "child" to give his/her part of the house to your friend.(I'm not sure about the strict legality but it would be hard to detect from the UK). It would have to be done by a notaire, and the downside is that there would be notaire's fees based  on the value, but unless the part was worth more than €151950 there would be no Gift Tax.

        Your friend should see a notaire , preferably an ENGLISH-FLUENT one, to discuss this.

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If the son is going bankrupt in the UK then his share of the property should go to the Official Receiver as bankruptcy covers all possessions in any country. If he lies to the OR it would be taken very seriously and his discharge would take far longer. The world's a small place nowadays.
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I am so sorry to hear about your very difficult situations. A friend of mine had a brother who had disappeared after a break down. When the parents dies they couldn;t sell the house as it was not known whether he was alive or not. After years, they got proof that he had died, but they still had to put his share aside in a bank in case any descendants turn up one day. Inheritance law in F. is a nightmare. I really do not wish to gloat, but this yet another reason why we chose to buy in Switzerland. I wish you all well.

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[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="Lilly"]

I have a friend in a similar situation, she would like to sell her house here in France to buy a smaller property, one of the"children" is currently going through bancrupcy in the UK would she loose this portion  as ideally I think the children would like her to keep the difference in price ( not really loads of money but a difference to be sure)  can anyone shine any light on this.

 

Lilly

[/quote]
        It occurs to me that a possible solution would be for the bankrupt "child" to give his/her part of the house to your friend.(I'm not sure about the strict legality but it would be hard to detect from the UK). It would have to be done by a notaire, and the downside is that there would be notaire's fees based  on the value, but unless the part was worth more than €151950 there would be no Gift Tax.
        Your friend should see a notaire , preferably an ENGLISH-FLUENT one, to discuss this.
[/quote]

I can answer this if the property was in the UK and it should still work this way with a property is in France - the party going bankrupt can't 'give' the property to anyone as the OR will take a very dim view and as the property ownership is registered etc. far too easy to spot. However they can sell their beneficial interest in the property - the best way for this to happen is fro one of the co-owners to buy them out - an argument to the OR that a share in the property isn't worth much on the open market an would be calculated at forced sale prices should mean that an offer of 25 - 30 percent of the apparent value would be OK. The transfer of ownership would have to go through a notaire and it is possible that you can pay the OR the amount paid less the tax liablity. You need to talk to CAB or a bankruptcy service in the UK. In the UK the OR could force the sale of the house if appropriate - no idea if the could do this cross border and even if they can, unless the amount of of money is large it is unlikely that they would see it as worthwhile.

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