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who gets my house?


bubbles
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After marketing our house for about 10 months and finding then losing two buyers, we eventually accepted an offer by a private buyer who duly went to our notaires and signed papers on 31st January.

She also left a deposit of 10,000 euros.

We had previously signed a procuration so that the notaire can act on our behalf and we don't even have to be present for the acte de vente.

We duly wrote to both agents by email on 1st February, explaining that the house was now sold, thanking them for their efforts and asking them to deliver the keys to the notaire's office.

We sat back and waited for the 7 day cooling off period to elapse and then felt quite optimistic, almost relaxed!

This morning, 10th February, we received an email from one of these agents saying that they have now sold our house at the full asking price, acting on our mandat with them.

They gave the names of the purchasers, even enclosing photos of them and a document signed at a different notaire's office.

They state that the "buyers" have deposited 10% of the asking price.

We have felt uncomfortable with these agents for a while (for various reasons) and really wouldn't trust them to tell us the truth.

They had told us in mid January that someone was interested in the house and had promised that there was an offer on the way.

Then we were told that ours was one of two houses being considered.

Then they started quoting a lower figure although this had not been agreed.

In the meantime the private buyer appeared on the scene so we agreed to sell to them.

Now we receive this bombshell.

Really, my question is this: if someone has offered the full asking price do I have to accept?

Apparently the mandat was (or even is) still in force since it seems to renew itself automatically at the end of three months and continues doing this for a year.

Hope someone can put my mind at rest.

Or break me the bad news at any rate.
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Surely it has to be the private buyer - they have already signed the compromis de vente and left a deposit and you have notified the agents that the house is sold and off the market before their email was sent.  Forward them a copy of the email to remind them.  Also, did they have something that said they/this other notaire could act on your behalf like the first notaire did? 

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Bubbles, how horrible and worrying!

One thing I would say (and it might not apply to you because the private buyer seems to be the most "advanced"), if an agent gets you the full asking price, you might have to pay their fees even if they don't sell your property through them!

Are they "trying it on" or what?

Do you know anyone local to you who could go and have a word on your behalf?

All the very best, Bubbles....

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What does your notaire think?

Presumably, the second notaire is the purchaser's own?  I would have thought that the first signed compromis should be the binding one, and if you or your proxy hasn't endorsed the second, then how can it be valid?  But in your shoes I'd be on the phone to my own notaire and check out the law.

I bet Judie (Mrs Will) would know the answer to this one.

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Well I did write to the notaire and "joined" as attachments all the documents the agent sent me.

Waiting for an answer!

I also texted my person on the ground there and she said don't let them "menace" you. That the house is already sold to the first buyer and I can't sell it twice.

Hope Mrs Will is reading this and can give a definitive answer.
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Had the estate agent's mandat run out? If they did not have an exclusive mandat and you sold the house first, and informed them of this, then I dont see how they should have continued with their customer. One suspects that bullying may be involved here.

Of course the agent will now deny that tyou told them of the sale or that they received the letter or mail.

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Well, the mandate ran out after 3 months but apparently it just keeps on renewing itself like some insect for 12 months.

It wasn't an exclusive mandate and I did write to tell them really politely that we had sold the house. This was 6 days before their bombshell yesterday.

I wrote to the other agent too and they were perfectly civil, just asking how much we accepted in the end - for their records presumably.

Good news is our notaire has replied and reassured us, saying simply that we must write back to the agent saying that the compromis was signed on 2nd February and that the house is sold!!!

Feel a bit better now.

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Pleased to hear that, with your mistrust of the agent and the way he has handled this, especially with the photos of the buyer it almost makes me think that he has got a mate to put up a ficticious offer to try and wrangle/frighten the commission out of you.

Paranoid, me? not at all its just they are all out to get me [:D]

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I agree with Chancer about the photos.  Seems weird, sending photos of the supposed buyers!

As you know, Bubbles, I have just bought and, if the agent had asked for photos, I'm not sure I'd have posed with my best side to the camera.

I'd want to know precisely why he wanted my photo:  I mean I'm not yet famous enough for someone to want to take my photo![;-)]

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I think the photos were because they are Belgian - well, that's the only reason I can think of.

The saga continues:

This morning, an email from the agents saying that they are disappointed and that we owe them 9.000euros for their commission since they did their job as described in the contract which remains in force until they receive a registered letter cancelling it! They have put the matter in the hands of their solicitor.

Aaaaaaaaaagh!

I've just written to our solicitor so I hope he can sort it out.

The sad thing is, we were doing the decent thing. The offer we have accepted is 18,500euros net for us less than the full selling price.

Still not entirely convinced that these Belgian people really were ready to pay the full asking price, or even that they exist.

But.......it's just horrible.

I think the agence means business about the 9grand since they haven't even asked us to send it, just say that their solicitor is dealing with it.
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It should be a warning to us all. The standard "Mandat non exclusivif" contract provides that they can sign a Compromis de Vente on your behalf without reference to you, provided it's at the full contract price (I checked ours).

You were obliged to notify them in writing of the sale by registered letter with proof of reception to stop this happening.

However, since you notified the Notaire first  and then the agent in writing, you at least have a case to argue. Try the Notaire first to see if he can act on your behalf. If not, I suggest that you will need your own lawyer (Avocat, not Notaire). Even if you back out of the sale and let the "Belgians" have it, you will be obliged to forfeit the amount of the deposit to the first buyers (not just return it!), so there could be a lot at stake.

Alternatively, it might be worth offering the agents a lump sum to go away and leave you alone. It's blackmail, but may be cheaper than lawyers' fees.

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Just another thought - ask your (French) lawyer to insist on seeing a signed affidavit from the Belgians that they are ready to buy at the full price - and offer to sell it to them. If they accept, you're still in pocket, although you would have to pay out to the disappointed buyers.

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Thanks.

Not what I wanted to hear though.

The first buyer left a cheque for 10,000 euros.

Is this the amount I would have to pay her in compensation?

Or would I have to pay 10% of the asking price?

Not having a good day.

Still waiting to hear back from our notaire.
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Have you checked with the "other notaire's" office that the 10K is deposited with them ?

Why did they change notaire ?

Did they not receive the email you sent to them on the 1st ?

I think they are trying to have a foreigner over.Don't give 'em a bean.

W

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[quote user="Wilko"]Have you checked with the "other notaire's" office that the 10K is deposited with them ? Why did they change notaire ? Did they not receive the email you sent to them on the 1st ? I think they are trying to have a foreigner over.Don't give 'em a bean. W[/quote]The depressing part as I see it, is that the registered letter seems to be the only thing which will really stand up to this sort of scrutiny under French law. 

Bubbles, are you saying that the "first" (your) buyer has not yet paid the full 10%?  This might be your let out.  I seem to remember from the deep recesses of what passes for my brain these days, that we paid 10% at the compromis stage - just a thought from a lay person.  Sorry this doesn't sound so good now but I hope it works out. 

EDIT : Another vague thought.  Have you seen the compromis signed by the Belgians?  You are surely entitled to see a copy if the agents are demanding money for the sale.

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Ok so you send the registered letter informing the immos that you have a private buyer, it takes several days to arrive. What happens if they claim to have found a buyer in the intervening period?

You sent an email which would have been received immediately, so they have been informed. Send the registrered letter if that is what they want but I would write something to the effect of further to my email sent on .... informing you.....
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I agree with your logic Gardener.  I merely comment upon the system!  It has always seemed loopy to me.  However, it could be said to work in reverse.  Did the immobilier inform Bubbles by registered letter of the second sale?  If not then perhaps one could just apply the same logic - there was nothing to stop Bubbles selling to somebody else if the agents failed to inform him/her of the sale to the Belgians.
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Re posting things, I have always been told that the franking date on the envelope was the date that counted in France for this sort of thing. And that is why one should keep all envelopes with important correspondence recieved, they certainly did at my old Mairie.

As the post can take some time, even recorded letters, that always made sense to me.

NB I always had our tax returns in for sure by the proper date ie not posting the day before and hoping it would be in in time due to the caprices of La Poste, I have even been known to pop it in the letter box at the Hotel des Impots before midnight on the due date.
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We knew that these Belgians were flying in to Carcassonne. We were told that they had shortlisted our house but were looking at another one too.

The price talked about (which we had not agreed to) was 19,000euros below the present asking price.

Before we heard any more about these Belgians' decision, we had a private offer from someone we actually trusted a little more ..

So we accepted that. And they went to our notaire and signed, leaving a 10,000 euro deposit.

The full price offer came as a complete surprise on 10th - 6 days after we had informed the agent by email that the house was sold.

We are not in France. The agents knew that.

We are on holiday in the Canaries so we couldn't easily have sent a registered letter and stupidly didn't think it necessary. We just told them by email that we had agreed a sale.

If we had managed to find a post office and get a registered letter sent to France I doubt if it would have arrived even now!!

There is one glimmer of hope, the mandat - which seems to be what it all relates to - quotes an earlier price which was 10,000 euros higher. We did agree verbally with all 3 agents to lower the price but nothing was put in writing.

I've scanned this mandat and emailed it to our notaire.

Come on, maitre notaire - tell me what's what.

ps just read your post idun. thanks
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