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Jill<br><br>Jill (99)
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[quote user="Jill"]perhaps Frenchie, Leurne or Clair would be most suitable to answer it (sorry everyone else), but why do you think my French friends address two of us at the same time as tu?[/quote]

I'm with Betty, even though she doesn't have the right birth certificate [:D]

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[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Jill"]perhaps Frenchie, Leurne or Clair would be most suitable to answer it (sorry everyone else), but why do you think my French friends address two of us at the same time as tu?[/quote]

I'm with Betty, even though she doesn't have the right birth certificate [:D]

[/quote]

Phew, that's lucky then! Vive l'entente cordiale. [;-)]

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Oscar wrote "It always makes me giggle that you can speak to the most down to earth, ordinary bloke around here - someone that you know if you were talking to in English they would be saying cor blimey guv'nor, you're 'avin' a larf incha? and yet they still use "on", as in "one should never use you in this sense, one should always use one". 

They are not saying "one", they are saying "we".  In the langue populaire i.e. what is actually spoken in France as opposed to what is taught in French lessons, nous is rarely used in the family environment between partners as "on" takes its place. Oh and ne is not used often in spoken French by many people in the negative either!!  Pourquoi, je sais pas[:D]

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[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Jill"]perhaps Frenchie, Leurne or Clair would be most suitable to answer it (sorry everyone else), but why do you think my French friends address two of us at the same time as tu?[/quote]
I'm with Betty, even though she doesn't have the right birth certificate [:D]
[/quote]

So, what you are actually saying then, is despite the fact we are taught that tu is for talking to one familiar person and vous is for talking to more than one person (or a non-familiar/formal person) we can all forget that rule and address a room full of people as tu!  In other words, as I suggested at the beginning, the rule is dying out and so we can all forget about the grammatical rules, which presumably are still being taught in French schools.  Well, that should make life a lot easier for everyone, especially as far less people use the formal vous these days.  I'd prefer to stick with what I've been taught though.  It is the way the rest of my French friends speak - this occasion was the first time I've noticed it, but I imagine it is more of a question of education.

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[quote user="Jill"]So, what you are actually saying then, is despite

the fact we are taught that tu is for talking to one familiar person

and vous is for talking to more than one person (or a

non-familiar/formal person) we can all forget that rule and address a

room full of people as tu!  In other words, as I suggested at the

beginning, the rule is dying out and so we can all forget about the

grammatical rules, which presumably are still being taught in French

schools.  Well, that should make life a lot easier for everyone,

especially as far less people use the formal vous these days.  I'd

prefer to stick with what I've been taught though.  It is the way the

rest of my French friends speak - this occasion was the first time I've

noticed it, but I imagine it is more of a question of education.[/quote]

Do not put words in my virtual mouth.

What I am saying is that languages evolve.

The spoken language is different from the formal language usually taught at school or college.

You did ask for my opinion.

I happen to be fluent in French but because I do not agree with you, your implied conclusion is that my education is not quite up to your standard.

I really do not think that comment was necessary.

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Not quite Jill, it's as Betty said.

You would never address a room full of people as tu.

Even though talking to two of you, some of the conversation would have been directed at you personally, so tu would have been used.  Some of the conversation would have been about more than one of the group, so on may have been used.  And some of the conversation may have been observation/instruction (as in you turn left after... or you would think so, wouldn't you) so tu may have been used in place of vous.

 

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And I am with Betty and Clair, AND have a French birth certificate.

That explanation is the one I had attempted, much more clumsily, earlier in the thread, and I had to "send" my post too fast as someone was knocking on the door, so that what I wrote was probably incomprehensible.

"Si tu veux pas te lever le matin, alors t'as un probleme!" for instance - this could be said by someone who means "If one doesn't want to get up in the morning one has a problem". That person could also refer to herself/himself in that way.

That is what I meant, and I believe it tallies with Betty's and Clair's explanations.

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This time, I'm with Clair, and I don't think that's what either of us said. Unfortunately, it's one of the "nuances" of the French language which exist and are something that, rather than being evidence that the speaker is "uneducated", is evidence that the listener has not yet reached a level of fluency in French necessary to understand how and why a particular linguistic register is being used. I've been speaking French for 40-odd years. I'm still learning and probably always will be.

Possibly if you ask often enough, you'll find a French person who is happy to agree with you. Personally, I have a fair number of French friends who do speak in exactly the way you originally described, and the majority of them are very well educated.

Sorry, 5-E: I posted while you were posting, obviously....oops! so did Cat!

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[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Jill"]So, what you are actually saying then, is despite the fact we are taught that tu is for talking to one familiar person and vous is for talking to more than one person (or a non-familiar/formal person) we can all forget that rule and address a room full of people as tu!  In other words, as I suggested at the beginning, the rule is dying out and so we can all forget about the grammatical rules, which presumably are still being taught in French schools.  Well, that should make life a lot easier for everyone, especially as far less people use the formal vous these days.  I'd prefer to stick with what I've been taught though.  It is the way the rest of my French friends speak - this occasion was the first time I've noticed it, but I imagine it is more of a question of education.[/quote]
Do not put words in my virtual mouth.
What I am saying is that languages evolve.
The spoken language is different from the formal language usually taught at school or college.

You did ask for my opinion.
I happen to be fluent in French but because I do not agree with you, your implied conclusion is that my education is not quite up to your standard.
I really do not think that comment was necessary.


[/quote]  Sorry Clair, I think you misunderstood and took this the wrong way.  It was not intended to insult your French, or to suggest that mine was superior (I thought you were French)- otherwise why would I have asked for your opinion in the first place -  although I think that there are a few people who perhaps assume that I don't have much of a level in French, whereas I am quite fluent myself.  It was some years since I'd been with these French friends in a situation where we were chatting for about 8 hours, whereas the last few times I've seen them was at weddings and we were all moving about talking to different people.  So being with them for 8 hours just highlighted something I hadn't noticed before and I'd not noticed it with other friends.  No one has actually said that they have noticed other people speaking French that way.  Yes, I realise languages evolve.  It's a shame really.  Call me old fashioned if you like, but I don't like the way English or French are going, as evolvement of language tends to mean loss of richness and lack of vocabulary. When I said it is more of a question of education, I was referring to my friends, not your own education.  Meaning that people speak according to the environment they are in.  Just in the same way as some people will never tutoie people they know really well.  I hope that explains what I was saying more clearly. 

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Jill

Instead of trying to analyse it and hold it up as monumental event or change in the way that the French speak, maybe, just maybe, your "friends" always use tu in their own house and they made a social faux pas?  At the end of the day it really does not matter unless someone uses tu to mean offence as in talking to an adult as a child.

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[quote user="Jill"]

No one has actually said that they have noticed other people speaking French that way. 

[/quote]

Crikey, I'd never realised that not having a French Birth Ceritifcate would turn out to be such a handicap!!![:D][:D]

The invisible woman...........

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[quote user="Jill"]

Yes, I realise languages evolve.  It's a shame really.  Call me old fashioned if you like, but I don't like the way English or French are going, as evolvement of language tends to mean loss of richness and lack of vocabulary.

[/quote]

'evolvement of language' and 'loss of richness and lack of vocabulary' in the same sentence doesn't really help to get your point across.

I hear 'tu' a lot in the sense of your original post and it seems to me that it is more a reflection of a manner of speaking rather than a question of anyone's education. It is like regional dialects and accents in the UK which differ greatly from RP.

For the record, I am not French and not fluent either. Possibly not even in English according to some!

Danny

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I often find using 'vous' easier really, and somehow remember the conjugations for 'vous' , better than for  'tu'.    So happy to continue with 'vous' at present.  And, another complication- how can you be on 'kissing terms' and not using be using 'tu' ?

Sometimes, I  contemplate how difficult it is to become fluent in a second language, and often believe that   'fluent in   ...   languages'   is such an exaggeration.     Fluency requires not only a thorough understanding of grammar, a comprehensive vocabulary   and knowledge of current colloquialisms.     Not easy, especially the latter,  as much of our normal speech is peppered with colloquialisms, and they change so rapidly too. 

Depressing really- even though I am working at it daily,  and did French at university,  and have even taught it to GCSE students.

Amicalement

Tegwini

 

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It does all seem very complicated - I asked the people in our village walking group and they said things like - "I say vous to X, but tu to her sister - I don't know why, I always have". I am sure it is a generational thing as well.

I am never sure what I should say to fellow members of the municipal council, there seems to be a real mixture, although the Mayor says vous to everyone. I might try and be brave and say tu to my fellow ex-teachers, now I have heard the rule about members of the same profession saying tu.

regards

L

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my mum is 94 and comes from a very 'formal' family - she is no snob and very open- but was just educated formally. with her best friend, also from very formal background, they always called each other Mrs Bo and Mrs Go (abbreviation for surnames) and always used 'vous'. They were so close, and it always made me laugh. For me, born early 50s and typical soixantehuitarde- I use 'tu' very easily- which always surprised my parents. When young people find it difficult to take up my invitation 'on se tutoie' - it is almost an insult for me as I feel that they think I'm too old to be 'tutoyee' - just like when they insist on calling me Mrs X, rather tthan my first name|!

However, 'tu' is sometimes used as a form of disrespect - for instance by the police with young people, especially of arab or african origin. Very well depicted in the superb film by Kassovitz, La Haine.

There are so many variations of the use of 'tu' and I can fully appreciate that it can be very difficult for a non native speaker, and take a long time to 'get'. My advice is to err on the side of caution if unsure- and tell/ask people quite frankly if you are unsure. Bonne chance

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Imagine my surprise, as a student on my "year abroad" in France, to be invited to dinner with one of our tutors in France and to discover that he "vouvoied" his wife!!! Total confusion!

And, on a similar note, when I was living in Australia, one of my bosses (who had been married to a Frenchwoman, but subsequently divorced) made me laugh when he said that in France it was entirely possible to sleep with someone and still vouvoie them the next day!!![:D]

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]...he said that in France it was entirely possible to sleep with someone and still vouvoie them the next day![/quote]I have been advised differently; namely, that even if you vouvoyer when you go to bed, normal practice is tutoyer when you get up in the morning.

I hasten to say that I have not tested this.

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