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French in English


Jill<br><br>Jill (99)
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How do you deal with French words in English?  With me, it depends on when I discovered the words.  Most French expressions I've come across in English have been since I learnt to speak French (age 11 and upwards), so I find it very difficult to anglicise such words.  On the other hand, I've done ballet all my life and was brought up to pronounce the French ballet terminology very badly, which drives me nuts, but old habits die hard.  For example "bras bas"  becomes "braaar baaaar", "pas de chat" becomes "paar de shar".  But if I was to teach my pupils to say things the French way, they wouldn't have a clue what examiners are telling them to do in exams.  My son has been reading a book today, which used the phrase "bas relief" which he knows from French, but doesn't know how to say in English - nor do I!  I've never come across it in English (or if I have, it was written down), so my instinct is to pronounce it the French way. So, is it ba relee-eff or is it bass rileeeef? 

It's a similar problem with place names.  I went to Buloyn when I was 8, so it takes a lot of thought to say Boolonye.  But it bugs me when people say Dordoyn as I first came across that in French.  I first travelled to Cherbourg with a French woman, so when they say Cherberg and Strasberg, that also irritates me.  On the whole, I feel that French place names should be said the French way, but if we said Paree when speaking English, people would think we were being pretentious.  But going the other way, if I'm speaking French, I would say Douvres and Londres, which I feel is wrong, really. 

Do you use French pronunciation for French words in English or do you anglicise them - or like me, does it depend on what stage you were at with French when you came across those words? i.e. the way you are used to hearing them.

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I know what you mean Jill.  Husband's boss is Vincent (Vanson) but my mother always asks why we can't call him Vin Sent like proper English people[:D].  On the other hand went with friends 'French) to see Lord of the Dance in Toulouse the other night and could not bring myself to say Lor off ze Dons.  Frankly when French people tell me places they have been in UK I rarely recognise what they are saying, and as for the French names I am always wrong!!  There is a village near us called Varen - pronounced by locals variously Vaarann , Varon, Varang, and Varenne - which ever I say I am always corrected by the person opposite mewho prefers one of the other three.[8-)]
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As far as bas relief is concerned, it is quite simple - this is an English term borrowed from the French, as are words like hotel, restaurant, casserole (hmm..all food words). They have been adopted into English and given English pronunciations and - in some cases - English meanings. To speak in English to an English speaker using French pronunciations would be pretentious. As far as place names are concerned, there seems to be a move towards French pronunciation - when I was young both Lyon and Marseilles were pronounced differently than they are now, the first even had an intrusive s at the end. Paris is a special case, almost all capital cities have a local name which is not used in other languages. The capital of Poland, in English is Warsaw, in French Varsovie, in Polish Warszava. The only place name in France where the local pronunciation causes real problems - that I can think of - is Reims.

The purpose of language, surely, is to communicate effectively, not to impress. The ballet pronunciations all make sense to their particular audience. Do you think that conductors use native Italian pronunciation when using musical terms with orchestras?

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I have the same dilemma about the pronunciation of French place names. Many English people that I meet cannot roll the R... should one use the same flat R just because the other person does?  In England, would we start calling Barth, Bath or Bath, Barth, when speaking with another from further up- or down-country? Expats use various shades of Franglais. As Cerise says, locals use different versions of a village name. Are they being pretentious?! Local pronunciation varies in France, just as it does in the UK. Vive la difference.

My local baker sells 'paing.'  Recently, I bought a mais-tournesol loaf, called a 'Moulaing.'  With it, we can drink 'vaing blaing.'  Is it pretentious to imitate the local accent, or pretentious to stick with received pronunciation? [8-)]

Here's my take on a few of the words and names already mentioned.

Bas relief:  Bas, pronounced like the beer Bass, (rhymes with lass) relief as in 'pain relief.' An alternative English term is 'low relief.'

Paree, has a rolled R, Paris does not.

Riems is Reems (flat R) or Rance (rolled R)

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When I first started to learn french at school we spent the first term learning how to pronounce the sounds. I had permanent sore sinuses from trying to say the nasal sounds. but on the whole, being geordies, we found most sounds easy to say. The guttural or rolling r used to be part of the geordie accent, and we have broad open vowels.

So I find the local accent relatively easy to reproduce and would say that if you live in France try to pronounce things like the locals.

We have friends who come from Essex and they speak french with an Essex accent, and one from Devon, with a Devon accent etc. In comparison the geordies, and also scots, have an easier time. 

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I find this subject very interesting. Not just French -English but any language.

Do the French have what we would term 'Middle English' or the 'queens English' ? as opposed to regional accents: Gordy, brummy, cockney, you know the sort of English that is not posh but would be difficult to regionalise.

I find it very odd when I hear a French person speaking English with an American or maybe a Scottish twang, so I think I would try not to learn the regional French twang just to fit in with the locals just in case the 'Twang' sounded like and unpleasant 'Brummy' to every other French person!!

But I don't think my French will ever be anything other than very 'English' so perhaps I no need to worry.

And come off it don't we all love a heavy French accent when the French speak to us in English perhaps its the same for them!

I shall never forget a young French  girl staying with us several years ago, Who when asked if she enjoyed talking with my friend (a well spoken English solicitor who spoke almost fluent French) and she said yes but was very surprised how much slang she had used!!!

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[quote user="Jacqui Too "]Do the French have what we would term 'Middle English' or the 'queens English' ? as opposed to regional accents: Gordy, brummy, cockney, you know the sort of English that is not posh but would be difficult to regionalise.[/quote]

The equivalent of 'received pronunciation' is Français de Paris 

I know what you mean about US, Scottish etc. accents in second-language English speakers. They somehow swamp the European accent. Maybe it sounds that way to Americans when they hear people speaking British English as a second language? It's not just a question of pronunciation; the grammar is different too.

I've been told that an English accent, a la Jane Birkin, is attractive, in the same way that a French accent is attractive to the English ear. Not so thick that words are unintelligible, but a gentle twang.

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[quote user="Jacqui Too "]

I find this subject very interesting. Not just French -English but any language.

Do the French have what we would term 'Middle English' or the 'queens English' ? as opposed to regional accents: Gordy, brummy, cockney, you know the sort of English that is not posh but would be difficult to regionalise.

I find it very odd when I hear a French person speaking English with an American or maybe a Scottish twang, so I think I would try not to learn the regional French twang just to fit in with the locals just in case the 'Twang' sounded like and unpleasant 'Brummy' to every other French person!!

But I don't think my French will ever be anything other than very 'English' so perhaps I no need to worry.

And come off it don't we all love a heavy French accent when the French speak to us in English perhaps its the same for them!

I shall never forget a young French  girl staying with us several years ago, Who when asked if she enjoyed talking with my friend (a well spoken English solicitor who spoke almost fluent French) and she said yes but was very surprised how much slang she had used!!!

[/quote]

Middle English refers to an historical period (roughly 1100 to 1500) not a pronunciation.

In English there is a register known as 'received pronunciation', roughly old-style BBC English. It is relatively formal.

Regional accents are just that, different ways of pronouncing the same words. If the vocabulary or grammar changes from received then it is a distinct dialect.

In French the same thing would be Francais Soutenu. It consists of pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary, and is 'official' French.

Then there is Francais Familier, which is slangier and has a distinct vocabulary and slightly different grammatical forms, and would be used in social, informal settings and by the yoof.

Don't ask for examples - it's been years since I did this - but one example I recall is two ways of saying you have a new car:

Soutenu - J'ai acheté une voiture.

Familier - j'ai une bagnole.

If you Google Francais Soutenu and Familier you will find vocabulary lists and so on.

But be careful - if you start chucking bits of familier into conversations you need to be prepared for a load back - damhikt.

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My one luxury is to attend a cookery class once a month, there are one or two there that can speak English (in fact there is now a Scottish lady who has lived here since the 80,s) but as always we only speak in French.

Our tutor is quite renowned (he has written and co-written several books) and also well travelled having worked in Domtoms and several north african countries, he could perhaps communicate in English à la riguer but prefers just to occasionally call an ingredient by its English name but with strong Picard prononciation, this is neither understood  by the French, nor the English speaking French or the French speaking English.

I think for him it adds a certain "je ne sais quoi" and he always reminds me of Basil Fawlty when he does it, nonetheless it is infuriating as no-one understands, if he were to try and pronounce it differently we may have an inkling that he is using a foreign word.

The last session he said that we were going to make a "shoot - né" between us we thought that he meant something falling from a nose (chute de ne?) and the group verdict was that it was an euphemism for something that resembled a "crotte de ne", we werent far out as we were to make a friut compôte which he was trying (and failing) to describe as a "chutney"

Generally I get very confused when French people try to add an English word into their conversation as I am listening hard with a French ear, its Ok with borrowed words like marketing, business, parking etc as they are generally pronounced in the original non French way (of course the good examples evade me at the moment)

The worst for me is someone very pi55ed who gets the Dutch courage to try and communicate in English, usually the one and only word they know, you have to first realise that they are not talking in French and then try and guess the word and what they are trying to say judging by whatever gestes (thumbs up etc) accompany it. A recent example from someone that I had been speaking to in French all evening untill they became pi55ed and boorish.

Him - "bee.... curm"

Me (spoken in French) "are you trying to use the verb devinir (become)?"

Him - "bee....carm"

Me - are you trying to say "soit calm" (be calm)?

Him "bee......cuuurm"

After many more iterations he finally decided to  add the forename -

"Daviiid ...........  Beekam" [:D]

Great, just what I wanted to discuss!

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J.R. - I had a similar problem, when a french person said he liked the "bee  tells". I kept saying je ne comprends until it clicked, the Beatles!

Jill - we seem to have changed your original question from french in english to english in french. But still interesting.

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funny to read this thread - as for me the experience is the other way round! The first such word I came by was 'cul-de-sac'- the way my landlady pronounced it made me laugh so much. Menage a trois, laissez faire - always sound so posh. 'Deja vu' really confused me, as most British people pronounce it as 'deja vous' = you, already = totally different meaning. When my daughters did ballet - it took me ages to realise that the words used by the teacher where (sort of) French. Daughters hated it when I pronounced them 'properly' - same with towns like Reims, etc-

The one which always sounds so weird and affected is 'genre'!

And that is before we start on false friends! Did I get in a pickle with them at first!!!

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Yes, Patf - things always get changed.  I can definitely say that I have never hear the term bas relief in English - only read it in guide books probably.  I think if I came across that or similar terms in English and was reading them out aloud, it would be difficult to anglicise them. 

Place names vary in any language according to where you are and according to whether it is the locals who say it.  Near where I live, we have Southwell, but many people call it Suthull, yet I understand that it is Southwell to immediate locals, but not to surrounding locals.  Then, what about counties?  Some say Nottinghamsheer, some say Nottinghamshy-re and others, including myself say Nottinghamsher.  Bath or Barth depends on how you have been brought up to talk.  Down south, people say Barth anyway, but up here in the East Midlands people say Bath unless they are from a family background where old BBC English is spoken.  Some friends in Normandy lent us a flat in Samoens which they called Samwan, but some friends from Annecy called it Samwance.  But even with other people we knew in 73/74 called it one or the other.  Then there are a lot of places in 73/74 which end -AZ and some say az and some say a.  The French don't break pronunciation rules in the way that the English do, but they do do it!

On the matter of the solicitor who spoke fluent French with a lot of slang - that doesn't surprise me at all.  I think that someone who speaks fluent French is more likely to use more slang or at least coloquialisms.  I did CSE French, then Institute of Linguists 1, but then spent 7 weeks in France before doing A level.  More of my French has been learnt from being with French people than from lessons and I expect my French is more slangy than I'd like it to be.

With regard to regional accents - I don't think there is any point in trying to "imitate" it, as an adult, but surely those of you who are talking to provencale (or other southern) people will pick up that accent if you have an ear for accents.  I'm sure that most people speak differently with different people - not to impress better spoken people, not to mingle with more local people, but because you just can't help it.  My children said I always spoke differently when I'd spent a couple of hours with my mother.  I'm sure any children who are at school will pick up the accents of the children and speak French like the natives, which is wonderful if they have that opportunity.  On the other hand, if an adult does pick up a regional accent that makes their French sound more French than British, then that is surely better.

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I speak French with my local Jura accent as soon as I get there- and lose it automatically when I am not! Very weird last time we were in the Jura, at a dinner party with a couple of old friends, and 1 couple from Paris. I found myself switching from one accent to the other- it was weird! Wherever I've lived in the UK, I picked up some of the accent, local slang, dialects- but after a few years you learn about different registers, etc- and when one is appropriate or not. It is all part of the fun, if like me, you love languages. the best way to learn is to make a real mess of it, dig yourself out of the hole, and keep going!

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Good advice in any language, Odile! I use a little of the local accent in the South-west, because I'm more easily understood when I do, and since I often repeat what is said to me, it seems rude not to copy as closely as possible, otherwise it could seem like I'm correcting the locals. When I'm talking to French friends from elsewhere I don't use the aing-twang, because they laugh at me... Parisians huh?!
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ok, no more Metz-ing about; time for a serious response.

Accents are strange creatures, that's for sure but also very individual. I find that I tend to acquire the local accent of wherever I happen to be (as, it seems, do most people) but I have a couple of friends/acquaintances (one English, one Canadian) who are married to French women, have lived in France for 20+ years, are absolutely fluent but have the strangest accents I have ever heard - they certainly haven't picked up their local accent.

When speaking English, I have (at least) two different accents - my "natural" one and one that I adopt when speaking to non-Anglophones (and which doesn't involve any change in volume!).

I learned my Spanish in Southern Spain and I am stuck with a weird accent (cross between Anglo and Al-Andalus) and I don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to say "mas o menos" being condemned to "ma oo menoo." I do, however, recall one meeting in Madrid which involved two groups - one from Madrid, the other from Andalucia - where I experienced the same thing that Odile mentioned; I was using a different accent according to which group the person I was speaking to was from.

After going on for three years here, my accent lies somewhere between "terrible" and "exécrable" (for the first, you have to decide which meaning I'm using!) but it is clear to me that éventuell-e-ment I will end up with an accaing that will engender no end of mirth among Parisians.

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I have a (French) boss who speaks perfect English, probably with what some people would call an 'upper crust ' English accent. He says he has had to revert to speaking English with a French accent because the workforce (Philipino and Indian) didn't understand him !!!!!!!!

He also commented to me that it was quite nice to speak to an Englishman that he could actually understand (not Geordies, Scots etc etc)

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[quote user="powerdesal"]
He also commented to me that it was quite nice to speak to an Englishman that he could actually understand (not Geordies, Scots etc etc)
[/quote]

I was complemented last time we were over by a French man who asked at the end of a fairly long conversation in English why was it that he could understand me more than any other English person he had spoken with before and I told him:    that    I    was   well    used    to   speaking    with  young    French  girls   that    we   had    stay    in   our   home   and    I     wish    that   French    people    could     speak    to    me     in     the    same    way!!!!!!

Only problem was he was a Jehovah's witness trying to bend my ear [6] [:-))]

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My English accent befuddles everybody! having been inthe  UK so long, I sound like a native- but like no native sounds! I have been accused of having a slight Welsh accent, and also sometimes South African! Why? Grrrrr... In German I have a French accent - apparently my Italian accent is quite good, now I know which syllable to put the emphasis on (well, most of the time!)...

When I first started teaching, one 13 year old student with a really broad Leicester accent asked me 'but Miss, why can't you speak proper like what we do, like?'  She was most offended that the rest of the class laughed .. at her. (Abigail her name was. I shall always remember the day in about 1984 when we visited Honfleur Church - I anticipated what she was going to do - but I was on the other side of the Church and couldn't stop her - as she blew all the cierges off like a giant Birthday cake... never was so embarrassed in all my life!)

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