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French prononciation of English names and places


Chancer
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Point taken Allan but there is a world of difference between Loch - Loch and macher - marrer, its not even remotely similar, I am trying to think of some French words that also contain ach, cracher springs to mind yet no-one pronounces it crarrer.

There has to be another reason as it is systematic,  my belief is that it did indeed start with the newsreaders, I am sure that for 99% of the people that is the first time they heard the name Michael Shoomarrer, I would add that all the newsreaders pronounce the Michael correctly as do most French people I know yet any other Michael gets called Mikael [:(]

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Great discussion.  In fact, unless one has studied phonetics, I think it's very difficult to convey sounds in print, thus there's always a chance that Frenchie's rr sounds like the German ch to her, it's hard to tell.  I've often seen the British th written as a z in French text books (sic), so what chance have studiers of our language got to pronounce this correctly?  I've had a lot of luck getting my French friends to do this well so it's not a lack of ability, just poor teaching and a given wisdom in the classroom which seems to be accepted and passed on by ignorant (in its literal, not insulting, sense) language teachers.

My favourite pet hate at the moment is the wonderful Kauto Star.  In what universe can one possibly read that as Kay-toe?  In spite of his owner and trainer both telling the public on numberous occasions that it is pronounced as written (Cor-toe), I still hear commentators and pundits and many others who should know better, using the former pronounciation.  Thus what hope have the rest of us got? 

David Coulthard has repeatedly said that he pronounces the th as in the in his surname, but still I hear people pronouncing it Coultard.  I agree with Chancer on this one.  Surely it's up to the owner of the name (or the owner of the beast) to determine how to say it, not anybody else? 

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And here's a real German doing it!

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5172736/Michael_Schumacher_Ein_Leben_am_Limit_Teil_5

(Sorry about the ads).  In fact there are several different Germans on here and all pronounce the ch in a way far closer to ch as in the Scottish loch, than rr as in marrow.  Sorry, Regine, but I don't hear the double r sound once.[:(]

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Dans l’ensemble des pays francophones, on prononce plus ou moins à l’allemande le nom des célèbres pilotes de course. Le groupe sch de la première syllabe du nom se prononce comme le ch de chat et le groupe ch de la dernière syllabe se prononce approximativement comme un r très guttural. Il faut donc dire MI-KA-ÈL et RALF CHOU-MA-REUR.

This would appear to be definitive and bear out Frenchise case but for the possible caveat of "plus ou moins".

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[quote user="Chancer"]

comme un r très guttural. [/quote]Maybe that's the crux, n'est-ce pas?  Again, I think it's a difficulty with phonetic spelling because in English rr is not guteral in the least, is it?  In fact, English (unlike Welsh and Scots pronounciation and some regional accents like Northumbrian - as opposed to Geordie) is rarely guteral when spoken, is it?  Hence the English (but rarely the Scots) have such difficulty with the letter r in French.

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[quote user="Chancer"]Dans l’ensemble des pays francophones, on prononce plus ou moins à l’allemande le nom des célèbres pilotes de course. Le groupe sch de la première syllabe du nom se prononce comme le ch de chat et le groupe ch de la dernière syllabe se prononce approximativement comme un r très guttural. Il faut donc dire MI-KA-ÈL et RALF CHOU-MA-REUR.

This would appear to be definitive and bear out Frenchie's case but for the possible caveat of "plus ou moins".[/quote]

Chancer, I'm sorry but I think you've missed the point. 

You don't say where you found that quotation, but it was presumably written by a French person, and he's trying to describe a sound that doesn't naturally exist in French.  "Un R très guttural" is as close as he can get to describing it and also as close as most French people can get to pronouncing it, so he can't be blamed; but it's not accurate.

Look at the way he spells chou-ma-reur:  he seems to regard those two Rs as being about the same.  They are not.

If you can find a native German speaker, ask him to say some other word that includes both sounds (as an example, I offer you the town name Lörrach).  The "rr" and the "ch" are quite different sounds.  Most English speakers can hear the difference (which is why the Schumacher question was asked on this forum in the first place).  Some French speakers may not be able to hear it.

As for the German Michael: the "ch" is not pronounced like K.  Ask your German friend to demonstrate this when he's finished with Lörrach.  "Mi-ka-èl" is dead wrong (although it's right to show it as three syllables). 

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[quote user="cooperlola"]In fact there are several different Germans on here and all pronounce the ch in a way far closer to ch as in the Scottish loch, than rr as in marrow.  Sorry, Regine, but I don't hear the double r sound once.[/quote]

Why would anyone expect to hear it?  These are Germans - they know how to pronounce "ch" in any given German word.

The "rr" in Frenchie's post is a French person's attempt to represent a non-French sound.

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[quote user="allanb"]Why would anyone expect to hear it?  [/quote] Because it's a video with a commentary in German .

Clearly I put my point very badly as in essence I agree with you.  My suspicion is that Frenchie is trying to convey the German pronounciation of ch (more akin to the Scots loch) and not the British way of pronouncing the nearest French phonetic spelling "rr" which to me is pronounced as in marrow but maybe not to her.  Thus I'm trying to find out from her whether her German friend pronounces it as in marrow or more like loch (as per the native Germans in the video.)

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AllanB, I am sure that I am missing the point as I just cant get my head around what you are saying, I had the same problem with the responses when I created the Schoumarrer thread, I think it may be to do with phonetic spelling and those odd characters which convey everything to my educated French friends but just serve to confuse me.

Accepting that for my education it doesnt matter how Michael likes his name pronouncing and accepting the ch becoming a K in Mikael its the marrer that is confusing the hell out of me.

I understand your example of Lorrach I think, but I think you are talking about the difference in "ash" or "ach" or "ack".

But how would a German pronounce the "acher" in Schumacher, or even some Germans (there may be regional differences) would it be with two r's as Cooperlolas example "marrow"?

If you can avoid those phonetic characters in your answer it may be advisable.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

And here's a real German doing it!

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5172736/Michael_Schumacher_Ein_Leben_am_Limit_Teil_5

(Sorry about the ads).  In fact there are several different Germans on here and all pronounce the ch in a way far closer to ch as in the Scottish loch, than rr as in marrow.  Sorry, Regine, but I don't hear the double r sound once.[:(]

[/quote]

No, not the double ENGLISH R as in narrow !  an R  a bit like like Retard in French !

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[quote user="Chancer"]I understand your example of Lörrach I think, but I think you are talking about the difference in "ash" or "ach" or "ack".

But how would a German pronounce the "acher" in Schumacher, or even some Germans (there may be regional differences) would it be with two r's as Cooperlolas example "marrow"?

If you can avoid those phonetic characters in your answer it may be advisable.[/quote]

My example of Lörrach was to show that there is a difference in German between "rr" and "ch".  I wasn't talking about different versions of "ch".

But anyway: the problem throughout this discussion is that we're not using phonetic characters - it would be easier if we were!  We're all trying to represent a foreign sound using the letters in our own regional pronunciation of our own national alphabet.  So when Frenchie (who I believe is French) says that something is pronounced "rr" she presumably means like "rr" in French (but does that mean as in Paris, or as in Provence?) whereas when Cooperlola (a Brit?) says the same thing it means "rr" in English (but is that as in London, or as in Glasgow?) Already we're talking about four or more different sounds for "rr".  So you can see that saying something should be pronounced like "rr" doesn't mean much.

To sidestep this confusion I'll try to answer Chancer using the symbol X from the international phonetic alphabet, which represents the sound of "ch" as in Scottish loch, also as in German Buch or BachTo the best of my knowledge this sound does not exist in French, which is why the newsreaders may have a problem.

 

Now if I were advising a French newsreader on how to pronounce Schumacher, or at least the second part of it, I would say, first: try to learn how to pronounce X, so that you can pronounce "macher" correctly: maXer or maXa  (the "r" at the end isn't important, since it's hardly pronounced anyway).   If you can't manage that, the next best thing is to pronounce it like a French "rr".  It isn't correct in German, but within the range of sounds that exist in your native French, it's about as close as you can get.

But please note: it would be useless to give that same advice to an English newsreader because none of the English varieties of "rr" is anything like X.  In my opinion, for a native English person who can't pronounce X, the next best thing would be either a very soft "k" or a rather emphatic "h".

Of course the ideal solution would be to be Scottish, but not everyone can be so lucky. 

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