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French prononciation of English names and places


Chancer
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[quote user="Gardian"]

We British aren't all that great though, are we?...

Reims - Reems...

.............. but at least Marseille usually comes out more or less right these days, rather than the old Mar-sails. 

[/quote]

But some cities of historical significance to us have been given official English names for centuries, haven't they? 

Rheims (reems) for the French Reims

Paris (parr-iss) for the French capital

Marseilles and Lyons with S on the end (I am never quite sure how that affects pronounciation.

And how many of us would talk about Firenze, Venezia or Roma in the course of an English conversation, rather than Florence, Venice and Rome?

Angela

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Reims, but the french calling it rance, never seems quite right, even though I know it is right.

 

 And I know french people with the surname Paris and they are called pa riss, and not pa ri, so what is that about then, I've never got that.

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[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Hoddy"]Don't take it to heart, Frenchie. You should hear Americans attempt Leicester and Loughborough. Hoddy[/quote]Or English people tryng to pronounce Kirkcudbright (a town in SW Scotland pronounced as Kircoobree[/quote]

.... or Brits, French, Germans or any other nationalities you care to mention, except the Welsh  pronounce Machynlleth  ... You try it!

The French will say 'machin lette'.  Brits will have a variation on 'mack in elieth' or 'muck an let' (my favorite[:D] and very apt for being a little farming town) or 'mar ink elieth' or 'marink keny lieth'. Germans have not yet progressed beyond the 'v' of village not pronounced as a 'w'. They'll insist on going to the weelage ... It's a town ! of 3000 souls including all the farmsteads in the surrounding hills ...

Marr rann tleth ...

 

 

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Yes of course we will all have difficulties regardless of our nationality especially when presented with something in the written form, I am not sure why Frenchie thought my posting was unfair.

And then of course there are English cities that have got their own names in the French language, Londres, Douvres, etc and I am happy to use these when speaking French, what I dont want to do is deliberately pi55pronounce all the English other place names and especially the English christian names and I just dont understand why newsreaders and reporters whom I know speak perfect unaccented English feel the need to do so for the viewing public, all they are doing is encouraging the practice.

I watched the French dubbed version of "Gypsy Wedding" (not the original title I suspect), they kept talking about the town of Epsonne, OK I am used to that but at one point they had a sub-title for something that was written, it may have been the registry office sign, the sub-title was Epson

As for the christian name thing I just find it downright disrespectfull, I dont know anyone in England that when a foreign person is introduced to them in person does not try their hardest to correctly pronounce their given name, OK some do a better job than others and Jean-Paul (Pol) may hear his name pronounced John-Paul but in general I believe the will is there.

When i was young a Spanish guy joinde our group of friends, he was introduced to me as "Haython" which I did find hard to pronounce, i asked him how it was spelled and he said H-A-Y-C-O-N which of course threw me but I persisted and didnt cop out and shout out HEY CON! when I wanted to attract his attention [6]

 

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[quote user="Chancer"]

As for the christian name thing I just find it downright disrespectfull, I dont know anyone in England that when a foreign person is introduced to them in person does not try their hardest to correctly pronounce their given name, [/quote]Hm.  I always introduce myself as Deborah and then people call me Debbie, even though I detest that diminutive.  So maybe it's just non-Brits who get the respect!

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Come to that there are plenty of English place names which English people pronounce incorrectly. Near here there is a village called Zouch which is pronounced Zoch. You can't blame anyone for getting it wrong because Ashby de la Zouch, also nearby, is pronounced as you would expect it to be.

Hoddy
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[quote user="Chancer"]

Many on here, no doubt myself included have called you Debs, Cooperlola, do you dislike that as well?

I like the way that you call me Chance, Coops! [kiss]

[/quote]Sorry, darling, I didn't know that Chancer was your real name.[:$]

I don't mind Debs but prefer Deborah or Deb but Debbie makes me sound as if I'm 10 again (maybe I'll begin to like it again as I get even older!)

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[quote user="Chancer"]

Yes of course we will all have difficulties regardless of our nationality especially when presented with something in the written form, I am not sure why Frenchie thought my posting was unfair.

[/quote]

Naaaa , don't take it personnally ! [:)]

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[quote user="idun"]

Reims, but the french calling it rance, never seems quite right, even though I know it is right.

Certainly not everywhere !! Those who may say something sounding a bit like Rance have " un accent pointu " ( Parisians mainly and many above the Loire river .. )

 

 And I know french people with the surname Paris and they are called pa riss, and not pa ri, so what is that about then, I've never got that.

[/quote]   I assume that is "thanks to" Paris Hilton, very much shown on French Tv ...... [+o(]
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[quote user="Frenchie"]

[quote user="FairyNuff"]I agree, it's sometimes quite a puzzle. The one that really winds us up is Michael Shoomarrer! When you ask why, no-one can explain it. FairyNuff PS Daniel Defoe's hero I think?[/quote]

Shoomarrer is the way it is pronounced in German.

[/quote]

I started a posting a long time ago about Scoomarrer as I had seen him being interviewed in German and he was introduced as Schoomakker, I am sure that the following postings suggested that in some parts of Germany it was pronounced Shoomarrer but that he pronounced his name Schoomakker, which rather brings me back to my starting this thread (clearly its an obsession of mine) surely its the right of the person to decide how their name is presented as is the right of the people in a French commune to choose their own communal moniker.

In the case of a prenom to speak to your Guillame and pronounce his name as anything other than Geeyomm (assuming he doesnt pronounce it differently) is disrespectfull however one must be prepared to make allowances for difficulty with some vowel sounds.

I find it incredibly sad that Michaels in France not only have to put up with hearing Mikael but seeing it written, I once went to an English conversation class held by AVF to offer to help the tutor Mikael, myself  being a native speaker, it turned out that Michael was actually English but had long since given up the struggle trying even to get people to spell his name correctly.[:(]

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[quote user="Chancer"]..

In the case of a prenom to speak to your Guillame and pronounce his name as anything other than Geeyomm (assuming he doesnt pronounce it differently) is disrespectfull however one must be prepared to make allowances for difficulty with some vowel sounds.

[/quote]

I don't consider it irrespectful, as I do understand it may be difficult to pronounce . We all make mistakes !!

It is better to say Gwillem rather than William ( though I love that name  )  as it shows a will to try !!

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[quote user="Frenchie"]Chancer, I asked a friend at work, ( she's a  teacher of German ) about the pronunciation of SCHUMMI [:D] [:P] in German, and she said it was definitely Shoomarrer , hence my post.......[/quote]

But Frenchie, is this friend German?  All I can say, again, is that I was taught the "ch" in German was like the same sound in Welsh "ch" prounced in the back of the throat ....definitely not "rr" (though if you combine a very rolling "rr" with the "ch" in the back of teh throat, I will concede that they could sound a bit the same ...

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I agree with Judith about this particular "ch".  But there are 3 different ways of pronouncing "ch" in German, depending on which letters come before and after it, and the name Michael Schumacher contains all of them.  The third of these (as in macher) is the same sound as in Scots "loch" - which I presume is the same as the Welsh "ch" that Judith mentioned, although I've never spent much time in Wales.

French people have difficulty with this sound and I think most do pronounce it as "rr", but it's not the same.  Sometimes at the end of a word they pronounce it just like "k", as in the name Bach (and in some French place names of German origin, like Forbach.)

"ch" in German Schuh is pronounced just like "sh" in English shoe and "ch" in French choux, so no problem.

"ch" after certain vowels (for instance ich) is different again, something like a very quiet English "sh".

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Allanb

Thank you for your rather better explanation than I gave. 

Our school badge contained the words "ich dien" as it was named for one of the Prince of Wales who never came to throne (Prince Henry in 1603 if I remember the date correctly for the founding of the school) and had the Prince of Wales feathers on it.   Having studied some German I must confess I always pronounced it the "ch" way and not "sh".

I agree, there are many people who have difficulty with the back of the throat pronunciation of "ch" whether in Welsh, Scottish or German.  Hence the "rr" I presume. 

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Are there not variations in pronunciation depending on which part of Germany - or on which German-seaking country - the speaker is from?

I understood that a word like "Ich" could be pronounced "ish" or even "ick" - though the most correct way would be with the "ch" sound as in "loch" as mentioned above.

Angela

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[quote user="Loiseau"]Are there not variations in pronunciation depending on which part of Germany - or on which German-speaking country - the speaker is from?

I understood that a word like "Ich" could be pronounced "ish" or even "ick" - though the most correct way would be with the "ch" sound as in "loch" as mentioned above.[/quote]

Of course there are regional variations, and there are places where you can hear ich pronounced as "ish" or "ick".  But you picked a bad example: I don't think there's a region where they pronounce it with the "ch" as in "loch".

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[quote user="Chancer"]So is it safe to say that Schoomarrer should not be thus pronounced? 

I would love to know how and where it originated, all the French TV presenters say it and they must know better.[/quote]

It's not a question of whether they know better.  It's simply that the pronunciation of the German "ch" in this word is difficult for French people (including TV presenters), so what they say is only an approximation.  And you have to remember that most of their listeners are French and wouldn't necessarily hear the difference.

Many English people (including TV presenters) pronounce Loch Ness "Lock Ness", for the same reason.  And most of their English listeners probably don't notice anything wrong - although the Scots certainly do. 

There must be examples of this in all languages.  Many English speakers pronounce the French vous the same as vu, and content the same as canton, not because they don't know any better, but because they find it too difficult to make the sounds correctly - or because they can't hear the difference.

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