Jump to content

Hopeless!


Angie
 Share

Recommended Posts

[quote user="Chris"]Interesting point. For those that teach French: is it a given that older people have a harder time learning a language/retaining it?[/quote]

I couldn't tell about other languages, but my experience of trying to teach French to older people (which has only been English-speaking older people in France, and that is the first proviso) is that yes, it seems they have a harder time learning it and retaining it . But this might be skewed, since my point of comparison would be with younger people in England, learning French for a job; an exam, etc. I have never taught "older people" in England.

So, those older English speakers I have taught in France have been expats, or longstay American tourists.

Overall, the students who seemed to have learnt or retained the least, taught either in group or one-to-one, are British expats. I found that "the French class" has been for many, little more than another social occasion, with the illusion that "just going to the class" would be sufficient to imbibe the language - as if by osmosis. I must emphasize that it is not true of everyone. I have also had some rather diligent students, and those tended to be the the ones who also joined associations where they would mix with French people exclusively.

Most older people complain about their memory: (who was that actor, and what was the film again?). I am sure that declining neurones can't make it any easier to learn another language, and I do feel for those who end up in old people's homes where the spoken language is not their native language, but that is another issue.

Older people are so much more stuck in their ways, not as adaptable or flexible, probably more closed off to new experiences, and that must be a factor too. With many of the older people who at first seemed very determined to learn the language or improve their use of it, I found that the initial motivation seldom lasts. After a while, when they have discovered that they can, actually, get by, their brain seems to shut down, and they'd much rather get together with their other expat friends around a daily apéro - barring the odd interaction with madame next door, or with the plumber.

Cynical, moi??? No. I still believe that if you really, really want to learn, you can - but it might be a bit like giving up smoking: nobody can do it for you:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 115
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

And there, 5E makes one of the most important points of all. Language learning and indeed teaching bears no relation to, say, taking your car to a garage. For the latter, you drive up, let the mechanic do the work, and drive away with your car fixed. No effort on your part, and little contribution other than financial. Nobody can teach you a language without your own effort and commitment playing a vital part. Many adults show up once a week to a class and assume that their presence will be enough, and the teacher will magically stuff their heads with everything they need to succeed.

The question I am most often asked, and most dread, and the one most often asked by what turn out to be the least committed students is, unfortunately, " how long doYou reckon it will take till I am fluent?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure I've told this story before but if it helps to stop people from feeling embarrassed if they make a mistake I'll tell it again.

I needed to cut a piece of wood so I had to borrow a saw. For those that don't alraedy know that's une scie in French.

Jacko must have been (he's dead now) the happiest drunk in the whole of France so I asked him if I could borrow a "ski".

He looked at me in a very puzzled way so I repeated the request. He then proceeded to give a good imitation of a downhill skier whilst I pumped away furiously with my clenched fist. He finally calmed down and stopped laughing long enough to explain my pronunciation howler.

You're never going to be right all of the time: just get on with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And as an aside which you may (or not) find interesting, did anyone watch the 2 part documentary on Channel 4, shown over the past couple of weeks, called "Why don't you speak English?"

If not, I commend it to you and am sure you can pick it up on 4OD or maybe it will be shown again on 4Seven or another channel.

In short, it took 4 migrants to the UK who spoke little or no English, and sent them to live with 4 ordinary English families - none of them teachers - for a week, following which the "teachers" spent a week with their students.

IMO, it put into a very stark perspective the difficulties faced by anyone trying to make their way in a strange land without the language skills to do so, and gave the lie to any preconceptions about the ease with which you can "pick up" a foreign language by the simple expedient of living in the country. As you will see, if you take time to find and watch it, all but perhaps one of the participants were motivated, and none of them particularly old. Compare and contrast with the Brits, who can go almost anywhere on earth and find someone to bail them out in their own language, and you begin to appreciate that being born an English speaker is an advantage we take far too much for granted. It also means that, as an English speaker, one can always have the luxury of giving up trying to learn another language if it gets too hard. Meet some people for whom that isn't necessarily an option.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

The question I am most often asked, and most dread, and the one most often asked by what turn out to be the least committed students is, unfortunately, " how long doYou reckon it will take till I am fluent?"[/quote]

We were discussing this on another forum recently when I wrote that just when I thought I'd got the hang of speaking french, a native speaker comes up with a whole string of synonyms which I'd never heard of, not in my dictionary. (5E was there.)

But I love the language, it's very musical, and I do my best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Pommier"]

I would have thought that the danger in two non-French speaking people conversing only in French with each other, is that they would create their own version of franglais, since neither of them would know enough to be sure that they are correct.

Idun - I'd have been there with the blunt instrument!!

[/quote]

[Www] I have to point out that any such thoughts have never been acted upon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With regard to attaining fluency in a language, I always think it helps if you are a good listener. That way you can recognise frequently-occurring phrases, and also take in the nuances of pronunciation and inflection.

I was interested, Ron, that you did not mention watching French TV as a useful aide. Many people I know have found that extremely helpful, especially quiz programmes such as "Qui veut être milliardaire", where one already knows the format, and the questions appear on the screen as well as being spoken.

Angela
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no idea how good your french is RB and it all seems very eccentric to me and I could never live like you have. I haven't a clue how it works and don't need to.

As to Betty, the thing that I appreciate about her, is her straightforwardness, very like most french people I know. I have no idea why, in your entourage, there are not such people. Leads to a great evening and very interesting discussions.edit: and very good friendships![:D]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something which has hindered me is that I don't have very good hearing, especially if there's more than one person talking or any other noises, and that could apply to lots of older people. I'm fine if theres no background noise, but so often I've had to ask people to repeat what they've said because I simply haven't heard it all. In English your brain fills in the gaps so usually you get the gist but it's much harder in another language.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point Chris - it's a bit like when I walk out of the flight deck chewing my neatly manicured fingernails - you should see the look on the passengers' faces - no translation needed.....

It's about making yourself understood - not about how many conjugations you can manage in 20 seconds! How on earth do 'elderly' people cope when communicating with babies, deaf / disabled people, animals etc - they 'adapt' , they cope and they're understood!

You can always find a reason NOT to do something...

Bin the French lessons, save the money and get out there!

Chiefluvvie :-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Chiefluvvie"] How on earth do 'elderly' people cope when communicating with babies, deaf / disabled people, animals etc - they 'adapt' , they cope and they're understood! You can always find a reason NOT to do something... [/quote]

How very very true and very succinctly put.

When I read this earlier on "I have a feeling that the older people get the harder it is for them to continue with any language other than their mother tongue" I was tempted to reply as I strongly disagree, I couldnt really formulate a response that did justice to my feelings on the subject, you can always find a reason NOT to do something...  expresses it perfectly.

I have heard people trot out the "its too hard for me at my age" rubbish so many times yet I have met many people who make rubbish of the theory, I am one of them myself, its down to motivation be it love/desire, hunger or loneliness, the people I see that do learn a new language despite their age also engage in many other new activities and learn new skills, the ones that trot out the "its too hard" dont seem to do anything new.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Pommier"]Something which has hindered me is that I don't have very good hearing, especially if there's more than one person talking or any other noises, and that could apply to lots of older people. I'm fine if theres no background noise, but so often I've had to ask people to repeat what they've said because I simply haven't heard it all. In English your brain fills in the gaps so usually you get the gist but it's much harder in another language.[/quote]

I agree.  One to one, or writing, I can cope ... but in a social situation, I just cannot fill in the gaps well enough.

I've given up worrying too much about accuracy in speaking (always my bugbear, along with conjugaisons and gender).  Better to just get on with it. I find a glass of wine helps to loosen the anglo-saxon inhibitions .....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="Chiefluvvie"] How on earth do 'elderly' people cope when communicating with babies, deaf / disabled people, animals etc - they 'adapt' , they cope and they're understood! You can always find a reason NOT to do something... [/quote]

How very very true and very succinctly put.

When I read this earlier on "I have a feeling that the older people get the harder it is for them to continue with any language other than their mother tongue" I was tempted to reply as I strongly disagree, I couldnt really formulate a response that did justice to my feelings on the subject, you can always find a reason NOT to do something...  expresses it perfectly.

I have heard people trot out the "its too hard for me at my age" rubbish so many times yet I have met many people who make rubbish of the theory, I am one of them myself, its down to motivation be it love/desire, hunger or loneliness, the people I see that do learn a new language despite their age also engage in many other new activities and learn new skills, the ones that trot out the "its too hard" dont seem to do anything new.

[/quote]

I think you have completeley misunderstood - its not that older people can't learn a language, its as they get older (and their faculties aren't what they once were, which will be at different ages for different people) and time takes its toll, like myriad other things they lose what they have gained and I have seen this myself in several older people...they considered themselves fluent, but that fluency deserted them and it was their mother tongue that they used.

As I said one is left with a mish mash that is hard for both French and English to make sense of....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I said, my oldest student (learning English, mind you, not French) was in his 80's.

In terms of motivation, he certainly didn't lack anything. Having fled Iran following the downfall of the Shah, he came to the UK and raised two children, who both went through their schooling, married UK nationals and produced children. I imagine as a grandparent there is no greater motivation than that of wanting to be able to communicate with your own grandchildren. Nobody tried harder than Reza, and I loved having in my classes, year after year, although he made relatively little progress. It certainly wasn't for the want of trying, on both our parts. I'll never forget the time he turned up a day early for his class, thus arriving in my advanced class lesson, where he would certainly be out of his depth. His reason? His wife had gone to visit one of their children and without her to organise him, he'd forgotten what day it was!

Was it his age that stopped him from making progress? Well, yes, I think it was. That, and having to learn not only a new language but a new alphabet and way of writing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...