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Hopeless!


Angie
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Strange, I thought Mauritius was English, Creole and French speaking. Hardly a French colony now as it's been a British colony in more recent times. I can understand why Brits would be more comfortable there though, at least most people speak English. Hardly relevant to this particular forum in any case.

As for speaking French here in France, I wouldn't worry about it too much, just be prepared to have a go and do the best you can. Any attempt is usually appreciated. The formal grammar can be difficult, especially if you don't understand English grammar (which seems to be taught less and less these days); the terms may be confusing. I found that spelling was even more difficult, and getting accent markings in the right place and so on.

Fluency will only really happen if you have no English contact, but certainly you can do enough to make yourself understood.

 

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[quote user="Chris"] The very daunting aspect of the thread is the obvious fact that unless one lives in France, fluency is never going to happen. [/quote]

I can assure you quite categorically that one can live in France and NEVER achieve fluency!

And, no, I don't mean to discourage you.  Au contraire, if you are enjoying it as you have said, you will inevitably make progress.

The only thing to warn you about is this:  as you learn more and more, you will come to a stage when you realise that, actually, you know less and less.

It's at that stage when you need to struggle on and then it all gets clearer again.

Um....sorry if that makes no sense but for me it's rather early in the day to be posting!

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[quote user="Chris"]Living in the UK and learning French for just over a year, I've picked up some very useful tips from the early part of this thread, especially Betty's verb tip.

I've never liked grammar to put it mildly, but with the help of my tutor, have stared to grasp the nettle and not only see the rationale and logic of it, but weirdly, am starting to enjoy the challenge of it.

The very daunting aspect of the thread is the obvious fact that unless one lives in France, fluency is never going to happen.

I'll just have to settle for learning as best I can under the circumstances and aim to be better each time we holiday there.

We were in the Alpes-Maritimes recently, and my extremely basic French was crucial to communicate. The locals were charming in the extreme given my efforts to communicate and reciprocated with amazing generosity.

We love France![/quote]

The very daunting aspect of this thread is for me is, that you can learn french, but there is far more to France than the language. There is a word 'moeurs' that comes to mind , I've looked it up in english and it says morals. But for me it means mentality, customs and principles and more........ 'moeur' is a great word.

Sounds like you are doing well. Keep it up, bit by bit. But the 'fluency', well, that for me isn't just the language, it is trying to understand the moeurs of those we are speaking to, because sometimes it is not obvious. And in my case lead to people not understanding me, not because I wasn't using the right words, but because I was using an anglaise point of view and for some people that was incomprehensible.............. All great fun!

And re me living in the UK now. Well our income is from France, not a bean from the UK. And our son is in France. Most posters, if they leave, will have no further real ties to France. We shall be tied to France for the rest of our days.

There have always been holiday home owners posting and holiday makers too.

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[quote user="idun"][quote user="Chris"]Living in the UK and learning French for just over a year, I've picked up some very useful tips from the early part of this thread, especially Betty's verb tip. I've never liked grammar to put it mildly, but with the help of my tutor, have stared to grasp the nettle and not only see the rationale and logic of it, but weirdly, am starting to enjoy the challenge of it. The very daunting aspect of the thread is the obvious fact that unless one lives in France, fluency is never going to happen. I'll just have to settle for learning as best I can under the circumstances and aim to be better each time we holiday there. We were in the Alpes-Maritimes recently, and my extremely basic French was crucial to communicate. The locals were charming in the extreme given my efforts to communicate and reciprocated with amazing generosity. We love France![/quote]

The very daunting aspect of this thread is for me is, that you can learn french, but there is far more to France than the language. There is a word 'moeurs' that comes to mind , I've looked it up in english and it says morals. But for me it means mentality, customs and principles and more........ 'moeur' is a great word.

[/quote]My large dictionary defines moeur as 'customs, mores, lifestyle'.  the word obviously comes from the latin word Mores meaning much the same thing.

As for fluency in a language, well, I would define that as being able to communicate easily in that language even if having a strong accent. Being able to understand the language even when being spoken rapidly and to be able to read and write the language without problems. I would also include an understanding of idioms.

I reached that stage in Sweden and although having been away from Sweden for over 20 years I still read books in Swedish for pleasure. The Henning Mankel books( Wallender etc) are IMO much better in Swedish than in English translation.

When I move to France I would hope to achieve reasonable fluency in about 3 years. Time will tell.

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A footnote to a thread which now seems to be reaching its end : which might be of additional help Chris----if you see any merit in it at all.

Having already got French A Level and kept up French at Uni and later, during career, by attending a language laboratory ( sounds like Frank N. Stein ), I eventually found fluency when I had lived in France for some time --------and for what they're worth I pass on a few tips which my wife and I found of some help ) :

a) we agreed to speak to each other only in French during the journey to fluency----difficult at first but got easier and was really crucial

b) we tried as much as possible to "think" in French-----every thought , every day. It was, of course , impossible but the efforts bore much fruit.

c) we made a concentrated effort to speak to French people a lot EVERY day. As we live in an isolated farmhouse with vineyard, that posed some problems---but we persevered : we were lucky enough to advertise and eventually employ a smashin' couple as housekeeper ( and her husband as odd-jobs and vine expert ) : so they helped enormously.But we were not reliant on them----we visited all our neighbours , the nearest living a mile away across country, and we invited ( and still do ) a local family to our Sunday Lunch every week ( normally eaten at our huge outdoor table which has stood under the same tree for 200 years ). Being lapsed Catholics, we "reactivated" our faith, attend the local church every week, take part in their social activities ( not that they are myriad, given that we live in a rathger remote rural area----but nevertheless, they thrive). And, we also have visits ( again for Sunday Lunch ) from the local priest, who in the early days gave me and my wife invaluable advice not only on matters of language but on wider local aspects.

I hope some of this helps , Chris. Grammar, irregular verbs, the past participle and the gerund are just a grounding. The real secret we found was to make a real effort ( which was a labour of love ) to join the community, to speak to French people EVERY day at length...........and to remember that in our 50s, with France to be our home for hopefully another 20 or 30 years ( please ! ), we wanted our dream to happen in actuality-----and fluency in the language seemed to us to be a major step towards that. If you have the will, Chris, you will achieve all------as my old French teacher said when she spent a few weeks here : " you were a very mediocre French A level student Ronald but now....."

And I have to omit the second part of her remark for fear of the grapes of betty's wrath [;-)]

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OMG ! What a complete and utter load of drivel! More importantly - so terribly sad....

How to put anyone off learning French in one easy lesson....

I'd always believed the tales of English speaking couples talking French to each other to be a weird urban myth - apparently not...

What fun you must have had Ronnie on your journey to fluency !

Chiefluvvie :-)
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[quote user="Ron Bolus"]----as my old French teacher said when she spent a few weeks here : " you were a very mediocre French A level student Ronald but now....."

And I have to omit the second part of her remark for fear of the grapes of betty's wrath [;-)]

[/quote]

Please don't feign any false modesty on my account! You seem to have concluded that I give a monkeys. Let me disabuse you of that belief.

I'm glad we now have the forum's very own Michel Thomas to help those in need of language pointers. Michel T has been a good source of income to me over the years. ;-)

Chieflluvvie : blunt, to the point of vaguely abusive, as ever...but (sit down) I tend to agree.
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Betty..... I've copied, pasted, printed and framed your last post! :-)

Back to Ronnie who I misguidedly defended - I guess he and his wife have stopped short of self flagellation in their quest to become French. It has left me wondering what on earth they do for Fun! It has been said that' God loves a tryer' but I'm not sure even He expected such Herculean efforts - worthy of Cannonisation!

Chiefluvvie :-)
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Well RB, my jaw dropped when I read your post.

As they say it takes all sorts.

Simply I don't know how you did that, and I must ask, do you still get on?

 I

used to get a fuzzy head in my first year or so, if I over dosed on

french when I had been to dinner say, or in french company a lot, just

through trying to take it all in.  IF my husband, whose french is and always was far

far superior to mine had played that game, then I think I might have

taken a blunt object to him whilst he slept. It was bad enough when he

would correct my french and he had to a lot at first. It isn't that I

didn't want to learn, but I have not got the 'ear' and he has, so the

obvious to him was hard for me and he didn't understand why I struggled

so.

That your method worked for you, well, it seems to have. But not for me and I don't know any other couples who have done such a thing. 

Chief Luvvie are you unwell?   I am starting to feel rather sad and sorry for you, which I reckon you will tell me to stuff, but that would only encourage my feelings of sympathy for you. And saying nothing is wrong, would simply feel 'wrong'.

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I'm glad to have provided you with a "first" idun------I feel quite proud at being unique in your experience of folk who have tried to learn fluency. As I mentioned in my posting on the subject, you have to remember that , faced with 20 or 30 years here, hopefully, the need to take radical steps to fluency seemed rather a high priority. It----among the other factors I listed ( but which you omitted any comment on ------certainly helped ( without any problem for my wife and me ). We also refused to read any English "material" for a year. By the end of it all, and after much daily coversation with our employees and neighbors and the Church Groups and Priest, we found we had become fluent enough to go back to English whenever we wanted. You ridicule it but if it works ( and it did ) -----and if you are only aged 50 with a whole future in France ( a dream come true for us ), who is it for anyone to scoff at people's own methodology ?

Talking of "scoff", I will not bother commenting on the posts from Bitter Betty and Chiefluvvie. You told me, idun, that , in effect, I should give Betty a chance to earn the same affection and respect in which you obviously hold her. With your experience on this Forum, I really was going to "give your suggestion a whirl" and I was going to try and wait till I had seen and heard more from aforementioned Betty. However, her latest posts are quite frankly offensive.

If you, idun, have respect for such a sad and bitter person, I question your judgement. I am a little more discerning when it comes to handing anyone my affection and especially my respect. How can any independent observer have any respect for postings such as those which only show a person who must really have a very sad life. Sorry, idun, but I haven't got the stomach to "give it a try" as you had implied I should do. 

I will, when I get a chance, open a thread sometime soon about happiness , especially with the decision of Brits to move to France, but also about what makes some folk of any sort so unhappy that their vitriol spills over in such a sad way.

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Oh deary me Ronnie - happy to dish it out but can't take it eh?

I simply love love your 'I will not bother commenting on the posts from BB and CL....' statement - swiftly followed by your comments on our posts - a little psychotic I feel.,,,,,

I was also drawn to your statement that you are 'a little more discerning when it comes to handing anyone your affection and especially your respect' - I guess that's what your open and loving church and priests have taught you have they?

I feel so very very sorry for your wife.....sounds like a living hell.

Chiefluvvie :-)

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I would have thought that the danger in two non-French speaking people conversing only in French with each other, is that they would create their own version of franglais, since neither of them would know enough to be sure that they are correct.

Idun - I'd have been there with the blunt instrument!!

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Pommier, I think you have a valid point there. It certainly is borne out by my experience in Sweden trying to speak Swedish with another British person.

However I do feel that the more effort and commitment you put into learning a foreign language the quicker you learn it. Some people can become fluent surprisingly quickly and other can live in a country for years without getting beyond a very basic level. It all comes down to motivation and effort. Some people definitely do have a much better ear for languages than others but even those of us like myself who do not, can learn a language to a reasonable level of fluency in a couple of years.

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Ok..so...I'm bilingual and therefore not sure how much you value my opinion - but here goes anyway....

Naturally I know many people - friends and family members - who are not bilingual and, none of them have ever expressed a wish to be. Most get along just fine.

However, I think it's really important not to give yourself a hard time when learning another language - especially French! It has to be fun or it's pretty pointless.

Ok agreed you need to give it a degree of commitment but it is SOOOOO much easier to try and assimilate and naturally absorb French instead of getting tied up in knots with verb tables, grammatical rules and those pesky 'exceptions' - there's ALWAYS an exception to any French language rule!

Relax, stop paying out a fortune for pointless lessons that become tortuous, and things will become much, much easier. A colleague of mine has been taking French lessons from his female tennis coach for the past 8 years - he's still at the 'plume de ma tante' stage - makes you wonder doesn't it!!?

Chiefluvvie :-)
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Ron, I almost hate to mention this but I have a feeling that the older people get the harder it is for them to continue with any language other than their mother tongue, ie when you are in your eighties your fluency may just desert you.

Actually I know a couple of people personally where this has happened and one is left with a mish mash of language that only his loved ones would understand

It's all very well and good to plan for thirty plus years of language use, but Mother Nature may have other plans.

Plus of course language is an ever changing stream and you may find it increasingly difficult to keep abreast of English.

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The oldest person I have taught a language to was in their 80's, the youngest probably about seven. The differences are partly about motivation, and partly about entrenched habits and beliefs.

As I said way back on page 1 of this thread, one thing which becomes apparent when teaching adults is that they want to have conversations about adult things, in an adult way. It is very difficult to accept that you need, in the early stages at least, to use the grammar and vocabulary you have, rather than the grammar and vocabulary you would LIKE to have. So, many adults do struggle in the beginning with the frustration of knowing WHAT they would like to say, but not HOW to say it. And it is difficult for many to break that link, or indeed to stop themselves from trying to think what they want to say in their own language and then searching for a translation - translation being another skill set altogether and not a good route for beginners.

Some adults can't reconcile themselves, either, to the idea that its almost better not to try to understand WHY things are done in a certain way in another language, but just to accept that that's the way it is. It goes hand in hand with translating. If you try to match everything up with its equivalent in your native language, you will always be struggling. Children learn by mimicry and blind acceptance, not by understanding conjugation, word order or other grammatical issues. It is hard to stop yourself, as an adult, from doing these things, but it's one of the main barriers. Learning by seeing patterns in things is often useful, because even if you are more scientifically-minded, the mathematical aspect of the patterns often helps.

Sure, some adults struggle more than others, and age can (but doesn't have to) be a constraint. As I also mentioned, there is a misconception that "fluency" and "accuracy" are the same thing. It is better to concentrate on speaking - and accepting that you will make mistakes - than on getting everything spot on, but many adult learner s are inhibited by the thought of making mistakes. If you DO make mistakes, it isn't the end of the world. And having a laugh about them is the best learning of all!

Last thing I'd say: if you come across a foreign person speaking English badly, what's your first reaction? Do you immediately dismiss them as stupid or a bit thick? Or do you applaud them for giving it a go? I'd bet the latter. And that's what people from other countries think of us if we are trying. So there's no shame in having a go and getting it wrong, yet it's one of the main reasons adult learners feel inhibited.
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Thanks, Betty. Your last point was interesting also: as I mentioned earlier, the French I talked with on holiday last month using my one year of study could not have been more encouraging. I had to dive in head-first, given no-one spoke English, and and nervous as I was at first, the fact I was communicating and getting comprehensible answers back gave me more confidence to do more.

I also got the gist of a number of replies without understanding a number of the words, by knowing enough and getting it from the context.

Step by step...
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Thanks Betty for a really constructive and helpful post. Much of what you say is echoed by my own experience in learning a foreign language from scratch as an adult. I find that my O-level French helps me in picking up the language after more than 50 years away from it. Personally I find that once I jump in and start talking French I seem to be able to make myself understood even if I am far from fluent or accurate. Each minor triumph helps to build confidence.
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