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Contesting a Permit to construct


JGers
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No - we've been here 3 yrs.  The PdC was submitted 12 months ago and granted at the end of June - haven't yet established why it took so long to go through.

However - you're on the right track, in that we should (in my view) have been made aware that there was an adjoining 'plot' which was potentially iffy.  I accept most of the blame for that (in not querying it) and it's a salutory lesson for all, i.e. check all the boundaries of any proposed purchase and ensure that there's a clear bornage situation. 

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[quote user="ErnieY"]

wjt

Being told something and finding out for yourself are two different things of course and unless you employ your own advocat or other agent to act for you during purchase it's as well to remember that no one is on your side.

The vendors, want to sell, the Immo (if one is involved) wants his commission and whilst Notaires can be helpful and give advice their only duty is to ensure that transactions are carried out according to the law and that taxes are paid.

I said in my first post to this thread:

"Have you been to the Mairie to look at the cadastral plans. From memory 2A denotes land presently constructable and 2AU land potentially constructable at some time in the future"

and I wonder if you did this or just took the word of the enemy ?

I'm sure it must be distressing to find your tranquility shattered and I wish you the best of luck but it sounds like it's a slam dunk unfortunately.

[/quote]

Ernie, we did have our own soliciter a UK based one that is meant to specialise in French property. They were a complete waste of money, they did nothing for us really. Yes, it was the agent that spoke to the Maries office. However, the secretary I spoke to the other day recalled the conversation so I do believe the agent did as he said.

She did give me a copy of the cadastrel of the area with all of the constructible and non constructible land on it. But nothing was said about 2AU as you have mention and nothing shows up on the plans to indicate this. She just said that it changes every five years and what is non constructible now could change at that time.

Wooleybanana, yes we are just on the outskirts of a village, perhaps under 2km.

Poppy, I have never noticed these AV signs so don't know if they are used in our area, but it is happening all around us in the Dordogne. In fact, we know of someone else here that the same happened to. The new pavilions that are popping up everywhere really do seem to be willy nilly. It just amazes me that the DDE and the Maries office has the cheek of making people go through the motions and not to mention the great expense of providing architect drawings for a small extension (converting of a small old bread oven into a room) and within keeping of our house. But new little pink and orange houses are popping up all around us with seemingly no planning at all, not to mention the one that will be next to our property.

Having said all of that our house sits in the middle of 7 hectares so we are fairly safe. It is upsetting to say the least, firstly we were never told, secondly this house is being constructed in a place that does have a view of our house and back garden not to mention we can hear them. But hopefully we will be sorting that out fairly soon with some leylandii. But in the meantime, land all around us that was non constructible could be having houses built on it. By the way, we are quite rural and the village is a very beautiful very small authentic village with a beautiful small 15th century stone church at the centre so certainly not a town with tower blocks.

P.S. I was beaten up about making disparaging remarks about the new pavillions in the past on this forum. I have nothing against them and some are very pretty but the ones around us are built in such a way that they do not take into consideration the roads etc.. nor do they try to blend in with the architecture and surroundings. For example, there is a beautiful old stone farm on the road leading out of the village, three new orange pavillions have been built around it without any consideration to design or to try to blend with their surroundings. You have to wonder if and why they have a planning department at all. Someone once mentioned to me that France was shooting itself in the foot with what they are doing.[:(]

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[quote user="WJT"]I went into the Maries office today and the secretary showed me the plans and sure enough not only that bit of land but others around the entire area is now constructible that wasn't before. She says that the areas designated non constructible are only that way for five years. The plans change every five years and everything can change and nothing is guaranteed.[/quote]

For information:

The plans are called PLU Plan Local d'Urbanisme.

Every five years the Conseil Municipal can make changes.  This is proposed on the POS Plan d'occupation de Sols.  There is a delay for people to give thier doléances and then the POS is converted into the definitive PLU.

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Thank you Lisleoise for the information. I don't know why we weren't notified after being told otherwise three years ago, but it is good to know that we may have some sort of say before the PLU is finalised every five years. It just appears that it is our responsibility to ask about any future changes not the local authorities. However, having said that I doubt our objections will make any difference in the end, but we would have given it a go if we had only known.
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[quote user="ErnieY"]

"Have you been to the Mairie to look at the cadastral plans. From memory 2A denotes land presently constructable and 2AU land potentially constructable at some time in the future"

and I wonder if you did this or just took the word of the enemy ?

I'm sure it must be distressing to find your tranquility shattered and I wish you the best of luck but it sounds like it's a slam dunk unfortunately.

[/quote]

I just had another look at the copy she gave me of the cadastral plans or the PLU that has the constructible areas highlighted. It has "Section A1" on it, so I wonder if that would be the same as 2A? I will go back in to ask her but have some other questions and must wait a few days.

I will be very upset to learn that she didn't share the information of a 2AU that shows land that could be potentially developed.[:(]

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WJT, not sure where you are in the Dordogne but we went through the change process in our commune last year and we were all invitied to take part in the consultation process.  Interestingly, I also live in a similar village to you and the only objection to the changes being made were from British maison secondaire owners, even though the new builds were not close to the objectors.  Interestingly those mainly effected proximity wise were Brits - myself and a chum - and neither of us had any objection because without new people/young families coming in the village will die.

And of course, if you're in an historical village, everything, even at your remove from the village, has to be in the Perigordine style even though the building of pavilions may not be to your liking, it's what many young people can afford.  And the style of the building is strictly regulated by a number of French agencies. 

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Tony, the ones around us are not Perigordine style at all and they are all identical so far. In fact, there is no one that could possibly say that they even resemble anything Perigordine style. It sounds like you are lucky that your village has some restrictions, ours do not. In fact, I have seen some of the new builds and the adverts for the new development around St. Cyprien and must admit they have succeeded in developing something that blends in a little. 

But by the same token,  would have been very disappointed to have bought a property there and was told that nothing could be built on the adjoining land and three years later have that development of 30 some odd properties being built there. Fair enough if you were told in advance. Therefore, I say good luck to those that have been lied to for objecting, whether they be Brit, Dutch or French. By the way, we are about 11 km north of Sarlat.

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Tony, You'd love the couple of pavillons not a million (unfortunately) miles from chez moi in the Gironde. Bright blue with pink tiles and in a rural setting.  Yuk.  How they got away with it is quite beyond me, but as Wooly posted earlier, perhaps there has been some giving and receiving of presents........ Jen

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[quote user="Gardian"]Ernie - you're probably right, but you've got to try haven't you?[/quote]Absolutely, you owe it to yourself and I'm sure we all wish you the best of luck.

I've been re-reading the thread and wondered exactly what "certain circumstances" you refer to exactly:

"the original designation (of it being non-constructible) is perpetuelle under certain circumstances"

It would seem to me that unless there were perhaps some physical feature or problem with the site which rendered it unsuitable for construction, which doesn't appear to be the case as permission to build has been granted, then what good and valid reason would there be for locking a perfectly good piece of land in perpetuity ?

Do the French have an equivalent of the restrictive covenant such as can be placed on land and property in UK I wonder?

wjt:

[quote user="WJT"]I just had another look at the copy she gave me of the cadastral plans or the PLU that has the constructible areas highlighted. It has "Section A1" on it, so I wonder if that would be the same as 2A? I will go back in to ask her but have some other questions and must wait a few days.

I will be very upset to learn that she didn't share the information of a 2AU that shows land that could be potentially developed.[:(][/quote]It may well be that different communes use different codes for constructable/non constructable land but sorry to say if there is something on the cadastral and you didn't ask what it was.......................[:(]

 

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[quote user="ErnieY"]

It would seem to me that unless there were perhaps some physical feature or problem with the site which rendered it unsuitable for construction, which doesn't appear to be the case as permission to build has been granted, then what good and valid reason would there be for locking a perfectly good piece of land in perpetuity ?

[/quote]

Ernie ...........

Of course, you're quite right, but I make no apologies for being highly NIMBY over this.  As said, the plot is surrounded by other properties and access is in dispute. Siting of the required new fosse septique is problematical.  The plot is forested: that is to say that there is a large tree every 2m or so.  Clearing that lot will be less than straightforward.

If it happens, it won't be the end of the world, but I'd prefer to oppose rather than just roll over.   

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  • 5 weeks later...

Ladies/Gents,

A question which I hope is in keeping with this thread.

We have heard a rumour that farmbuildings may be about to be constructed on a neighbouring field and are trying to get at the facts ( I know, I know).

We asked the lady in the Mairie if any applications for a relevant PdC had gone through her office but got an evasive answer and a shrug. ...

Is there any requirement for a notice ( e.g; application for the PdC) to be posted anywhere (Mairie, DDE Offices) or will we just be woken up by the bulldozers one morning? I've seen mention of an "affichage" in this thread and understand it is a notice that has to be posted on the land - is that correct, and if so must it be visible to any interested parties ( or can it be nailed to a tree one hundred metres away from the nearest point of public access[:)])

 

Thanks

Stefan (09)

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Stefan ........

From what I have learned, the Mairie is your 1st and only port of call. Forget the DDE - waste of time. As a resident in the Commune, you have an absolute right to view any PdC request that passes through their hands. You are entitled to lodge an objection within 2 months of the date of granting of the PdC or the posting an affichage by a local huissier, whichever is the later.  One would imagine that such an affichage would need to be clearly visible, but ................ ??

To anybody else interested, been meaning to post an update on our situation, so this has prompted it.

Our lawyer duly lodged an objection, having finally received a copy of the PdC from our Mairie (just in time!).  It went in front of the Commissaire du Gouvernement (who, as I understand it, is the bod to whom all the local Maires are accountable) and his judgement was that the PdC should be annulled and the Maire fined a sum of €2k (payable to us).

A copy of that has gone to the developer and the Mairie for their responses. On receipt of those, the whole lot will go before the Tribunal Administratif for a final judgement.  Timing uncertain, but not quick.

We're obviously fairly hopeful of success, but whatever the outcome, it is not unreasonable to assume that we're not overly popular at the Mairie!!  

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My neighbour reckons so, but he (bless him) tends to see conspiracy in everything.  I frankly doubt it.  The developer isn't local (30kms away) and has no known connections around here. It's quite possible though that he intends to sell on to someone local at a knock-down price after completion. He's 'known' by our lawyer, although he won't say in what context.

To be honest, I think the explanation of the Mairie's intransigence is down purely and simply to human nature. They refused to listen to our pleas that the land is non constructible, insisting that they were right. In a way, they probably were, in that notification of it's status may never have reached them (our lawyer says that it often happened in the past), but that wasn't a reason to stick their heads in the sand. Having adopted a stance, there's been a refusal to back down.

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[quote user="Gardian"]

We're obviously fairly hopeful of success, but whatever the outcome, it is not unreasonable to assume that we're not overly popular at the Mairie!!  

[/quote]

Oh non alors, Gardian, now you'll have to move house (to another commune)!  Seriously, I am so pleased for you.  It's nice to see the "little man" take on the big boys and win!

Perhaps the mayor will get voted out come next spring?

Best regards

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SW17 ............

Well, as I keep on saying to Michel (our French neighbour), "It's never over till the fat lady sings", but sadly that doesn't seem to translate too well in to French!  He gets the drift though, but reckons it's done and dusted.

I'm less sure.  My betting is that the PdC will be kicked in to touch, but that we'll get no damages, simply because the Mairie will plead ignorance. If that's the outcome, then we'll be more than happy - 4 or 5 neighbours have offered to divi up the legal bill, so all would be well, but let's see.

As for the Maire, he's a 91 yo stand-in, with various aids coming out of every orifice (in view of what he said to me at our last meeting, I feel entitled to be somewhat disrespectful) and won't be standing for office in March.  There needs to be a change of blood in the running of the Commune in all sorts of ways, which I won't bore you with.

I'll post the final outcome - keep your fingers crossed.  Thanks all, for yr interest & support.

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  • 3 months later...
[quote user="Gardian"]To anybody else interested, been meaning to post an update on our situation, so this has prompted it.

Our lawyer duly lodged an objection, having finally received a copy of the PdC from our Mairie (just in time!).  It went in front of the Commissaire du Gouvernement (who, as I understand it, is the bod to whom all the local Maires are accountable) and his judgement was that the PdC should be annulled and the Maire fined a sum of €2k (payable to us).

A copy of that has gone to the developer and the Mairie for their responses. On receipt of those, the whole lot will go before the Tribunal Administratif for a final judgement.  Timing uncertain, but not quick.

We're obviously fairly hopeful of success,[/quote]

Shambolic outcome.

The Tribunal Administratif heard the case on 21st December (it took them nearly 2 months to notify us of the outcome!) and dismissed it because our lawyer failed to send a copy of the papers to the developer (irrecevabilite).  Our lawyer has admitted liability, but says that an Appeal is pointless because that would also be dismissed.  If and when building commences, he has told us to submit a formal complaint to him and it will be passed to his professional malpractice insurers.

He's very embarrassed and apologetic, but of course none of this helps us.  Our only hope is if the plans get modified in any way (and they have to submit a fresh PdC) or if building is delayed for 2 years from the granting of the PdC (unlikely).

So, it's all gone completely pear-shaped from an apparent position of strength.  If anybody has any bright ideas for another tack, they'd be gratefully received.

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Thanks for the update and I'm truly sorry for the unfavourable outcome, especially given the pathetic reason. Hard to dismiss the thought that there may have been some skulduggery involved.

Bright Ideas: nothing I'm afraid beyond the obvious which unfortunately are either impractical, impossible or unpalatable i.e.

Move

Buy the land

Live with it

[:(]

Good luck

 

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[quote user="ErnieY"]

Thanks for the update and I'm truly sorry for the unfavourable outcome, especially given the pathetic reason. Hard to dismiss the thought that there may have been some skulduggery involved.

Bright Ideas: nothing I'm afraid beyond the obvious which unfortunately are either impractical, impossible or unpalatable i.e.

Move

Buy the land

Live with it

[:(]

Good luck

 

[/quote]

Not a lot of positive choice there Ernie:[:-))]

Move......................but since the planning permission next door was granted.= value of house drops, no one will buy next to a new build project

Buy the land....................if he had the money for that, then he could move, or buy the land, sell it at a profit for a new build and and then move

Live with it....................;c'est le vie[blink]

perhaps it may have been better to live in PROVENCE![kiss]

EDIT: the fat lady sang!

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Ernie ...........

Thanks for the thoughts.

It's definitely a 'live with it' situation.  By no means the end of the world - just the inconvenience of a building site next door, but that doesn't last for ever. 

There could easily be a bit of skulduggery, but you can drive yourself mad looking for skeletons under the proverbial bed.  It may not yet be lost - still a few cards up our sleeve.

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