Contesting a Permit to construct

[JGers]

Could any one tell me if they have had sucess contesting a permit to construct.  A farmer has sold land beyond our house to two different people, one we accepted happily as they have been extremely considerate and kind to us about building on our border,  now a French couple have bought the land alongside, they have made no approach and have upset everyone they have come accross, but to get to it they have to cross our land and we have the servitude on the lane which is an unmade up road.  We have appointed an advocat but the only thing they can find is a clause which talks about degradation of the servitude because in our act de vente we had a clause that said there was a right of access to the parcels of land noted, which are now the potential the building plot.  We have lived here for nearly 20 years and are not being NIMBY because we would not mind nor would our other new neighbours if the land was only going to be used for private house but they intend to put a number of Gites on the land.  This will inevitably increase the traffic by a huge amount  from the 2 tractors a week we have been used to for 15 years, (the road goes within 2 meters of our sitting room), reduce our security and has potential to spoil a nearby nature reserve.  The 3 parties that own the servitude want to put in an appeal and collectively we have instructed our advocat to do that but does any one have any idea how long this takes and what the position of the potential builders is if they start to build during this process? Sad to say the whole process so far seems mightly suspicious, our village has had 17 out of 18 CU's refused several permits to build delayed and questioned but not this one - when my son and I visited the DDE to find out about why they had not approached us for the access - there were several comments about 'Oh you English this, Oh you English that' the fact is we are a French couple, a Dutch couple and an English couple all contesting this and when we pointed this out we were dismissed out of hand.

[Patf]

We had a similar situation and were able to get them to change the access route as the chemin was for St Jacques de Compostelle pilgrims. Not sure how long this took, three families involved, us and 2 french, wrote and signed a letter and sent it off to the DDE, I think. If the plans do go through for your neighbour they will probably have to pay for the access chemin to be reinforced, water electricity etc to be laid etc. Just hope the expense is too much for them. This is what happened eventually to our neighbour and the whole plan came to nothing.

[Gardian]

We are currently in dispute over an adjoining piece of land which was designated non-constructible some 30 years ago.  Unfortunately, nobody bothered to tell the Mairie or the DDE (or in their case, they have no record of it), so a PdC was granted.

The documents exist, so in our case, our avocat is confident of torpedoeing the proposed development, but he did say that once a PdC has been granted, it's hard to stop it. 

Best of luck. 

[Poppy]

[quote user="Gardian"]

We are currently in dispute over an adjoining piece of land which was designated non-constructible some 30 years ago.  Unfortunately, nobody bothered to tell the Mairie or the DDE (or in their case, they have no record of it), so a PdC was granted.

The documents exist, so in our case, our avocat is confident of torpedoeing the proposed development, but he did say that once a PdC has been granted, it's hard to stop it. 

Best of luck. 

[/quote]

Gardian I thought the Mairie and DDE could change land usage at any time. I know of at least two times in the last 10 years when Mairies have been asked by the DDE to release land for building and submit new village plans. I know it is very upsetting when they start building next to you, we are in exactly the same position but apart from buy the land there is absolutely nothing we can do about. We can't afford to buy ii now but have tried for several years. The owner was just sticking it out until change of usage, I think wherever there is electric/water there is a possibility it will be built on.

[AnOther]

This is my understanding also.

Have you been to the Mairie to look at the cadastral plans. From memory 2A denotes land presently constructable and 2AU land potentially constructable at some time in the future.

I do sympethise however it's somewhat illogical and unreasonable to expect things not to change over 30 years so it's perfectly possible that what was considered nonconstructable land then has been deemed otherwise now and this is only right and proper as otherwise neccessary development and growth could be stunted. It certainly happens all the time in UK as I know from personal experience.

I wish you good luck though.

[Gardian]

Well, I must admit I agree and that my limited understanding of the law was that things could change and that a non-constructible plot could be re-designated constructible. 

However, when we (my French neighbour and I - I think that I'm paying the bill, because he thinks that I'm loaded) went to see this expensive property law lawyer in Nimes, he said that the original designation (of it being non-constructible) is perpetuelle under certain circumstances. He was confident that our circs fitted the bill (or mine, if you see what I mean!)

He's on hol & correspondence between the parties has no doubt been exchanged during his absence. Will probably know more next week & will advise.

As always with the law, totally & 100% straightforward.  Don't start, Llyncelwyn!!!

[Gardian]

Just a little update.

Our Mairie didn't, after 3 weeks, respond to his request for a copy of all the documents related to the PdC.  He asked me to drop by and ask for them.

Stonewall + hostility.  "Haven't got the time, been on hol, you're wasting your time trying to oppose this".

Rang the avocat back and proposed that I went to the DDE to get a copy of the docs. Agreed.

Set off at 14.15 for Town A where everyone thinks they deal with PdC's.  Place deserted: find a bloke who says that it all moved to Town B on 1st Jan. Off to Town B (60kms away), eventually find DDE office and a friendly face.  "Which Commune?"  "Give me a minute".   "Ah well, it's actually Town C for you - here's the name and number for the lady you need to talk to".  Town C, by the way is the most local to us and closed the triangular journey which I had made.  Set off, hit the town just when the schools were turning out and the place gridlocked.  Found the office and one helpful lady.  "Ah Mme XXXXXXX, she's moved to the office on the other side of town, but she only works 09.45-11.45 and I believe that she's at a meeting elsewhere today and tomorrow".

Home at 17.45, with 150 kms on the clock, 3 offices visited and having achieved SFA.  Still, onwards and upwards - I'll be camped at someone's desk first thing tomorrow - they'd better not tell me to go to Town D!!!!

[AnOther]

Sorry for your woes but why can't I get the phrase "Welcome to France" out of my head...[Www]

Better luck today.

[Gardian]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Sorry for your woes but why can't I get the phrase "Welcome to France" out of my head...[Www]

Better luck today.

[/quote]

Thanks Ernie - one does become philosophical about these 'difficulties' and not even yesterday's performance diminish my affection for the place.

Anyway, went to seek out the lady concerned this morning.  "Desole", said the receptionist.  "She's out at a meeting till Thursday - everyone is.  I'm the only person here: you'll have to ring her on Thursday morning to get an appointment".  Hey ho. 

[AnOther]

Look on the bright side, you probably saw some nice, and maybe even unfamilair, scenery on your 150km jaunt [:D]

[woolybanana]

Gardian, as someone who has had his guts in Europe for a long time, who are you up against? Is the person trying to build the nephew of the mayor, the préfet, or someone with leverage? If so, go very carefully, but find out and be prepared for a dirty fight. But if they know that you know, then it might be easier. Perhaps find your local council rep and see what he says, and ask the locals, they usually know. Get the hidden facts first

[Gardian]

Woolyb .............

I wouldn't always say this over your replies (not saying you're always wrong, just don't always agree), but on this, you're spot on.

There is more than a soupcon of hidden interest in all this, and you've detected it. There's been a fight for the last 18 months in the Commune, with 2 'clans' to-ing and fro-ing'.  The Maire was 'unfrocked' recently for malpractice (stood down for 5 yrs) and the current stand-in is an extremely elderly puppet. We (us and our French not-thought-of-well-by-the-Mairie neighbour) have some contacts both within and without the Council.  By the way, our neighbour is a foreigner too - he's from Lyon (200kms up the road!)

However ............. my view is that ultimately the best course is the law, no matter which country you're in.  Our avocat is definite - the original non-constructible designation is perpetuelle.  He reckons that all he needs is the documentation to stop it once and for all.  The unwillingness of the Mairie to provide copies of that documentation casts suspicion.

Off to the DDE tomorrow morning, providing she agrees to see me when I ring at 09.00.  Thinks ....... better check the phone book to make sure she doesn't live in our Commune!!! 

[woolybanana]

God, you are right in the shit of french politics at its most typical. Try to offer the powers that be a way out before court via a local intermediary and all may be well or easier. Like, locating the property away from you. But the other side may do the same. Ohhhhhh feel sorry for you but you must get involved in the community to deal with this kind of thing. Please let me know what happens. I am gut feelings about these things and may be able to help a bit.(after years in France and Belgium).

[Gardian]

Just an update for anyone who might be interested.

Basically, the local DDE refused to provide a copy of the PdC.  I rang umpteen times, the lady was "not there", visited twice & same again.  Gave up.

The Mairie was evasive.  After a personal visit from me, one letter & two subsequent phone calls from our avocat, a copy was finally sent after 6 weeks!

In the meantime, we managed to find out the precise date on which the affichage was posted (it's a notice on the land to be built on, showing date of the PdC etc).  You've got two months from that date to object.  Time is up next week.

Saw our avocat this afternoon and he's submitting an objection to the Court within the next day or so - just in time! Oh, and a nasty bill for me, but you'd expect that wouldn't you?

"Chances of success?", I asked him.  Same shrug that I got when I asked his view on the likely result next Sat night (Fr vs Eng, for those disinterested).  It's enough to drive you to drink. 

[mint]

Gardian

I don't want to make light of your difficulty but, it would take FAR less than that to drive me to drink!

[Gardian]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Gardian

I don't want to make light of your difficulty but, it would take FAR less than that to drive me to drink!

[/quote]

[:)][:)][:)]

[woolybanana]

This whole thing stinks. Bad fiddle going on here. I suspect a little present has changed hand. Hope you get there in time for the lawyer to be effective. 

[woolybanana]

Sorry that was half the message and a bit of a repeat by way of introduction. You will need to be careful in the commune for a while as some people may resent your "interference". So dont apply for any planning permissions or whatever. Don't work on the black, keep a low profile. There will be lots of people who sympathize with you too, that's for sure. And do not worry about it. Read a book called Clochemerle which cazn be got in English, probably on ebay, and you will see that France never changes.

[WJT]

We are in a similar situation that we only learned about this past weekend. We were told prior to buying our property three years ago that the area around us was non constructible. This weekend they started clearing ground to start construction on a new house.

I went into the Maries office today and the secretary showed me the plans and sure enough not only that bit of land but others around the entire area is now constructible that wasn't before. She says that the areas designated non constructible are only that way for five years. The plans change every five years and everything can change and nothing is guaranteed.

[woolybanana]

Those zones for construction have to have been discussed and approved by all and sundry. Weren't you consulted. I suspect you have to be by law.

I guess you must be close to or in a village or something?

[AnOther]

wjt

Being told something and finding out for yourself are two different things of course and unless you employ your own advocat or other agent to act for you during purchase it's as well to remember that no one is on your side.

The vendors, want to sell, the Immo (if one is involved) wants his commission and whilst Notaires can be helpful and give advice their only duty is to ensure that transactions are carried out according to the law and that taxes are paid.

I said in my first post to this thread:

"Have you been to the Mairie to look at the cadastral plans. From memory 2A denotes land presently constructable and 2AU land potentially constructable at some time in the future"

and I wonder if you did this or just took the word of the enemy ?

I'm sure it must be distressing to find your tranquility shattered and I wish you the best of luck but it sounds like it's a slam dunk unfortunately.

[woolybanana]

Ernie is right, but what worries me, and I have seen this elsewhere, is that some chunk of land owned by someone's cousin has been made into 2AU and then 2A by the backdoor. This does not mean you can do a lot I'm afraid. Unless there is some way of getting your house bought by the commune for true value, but that may not apply in these sort of cases.

[Poppy]

[quote user="WJT"]

We are in a similar situation that we only learned about this past weekend. We were told prior to buying our property three years ago that the area around us was non constructible. This weekend they started clearing ground to start construction on a new house.

I went into the Maries office today and the secretary showed me the plans and sure enough not only that bit of land but others around the entire area is now constructible that wasn't before. She says that the areas designated non constructible are only that way for five years. The plans change every five years and everything can change and nothing is guaranteed.

[/quote]

Exactly the same thing happened to us, first we knew of change of use were the AV signs. Even more frustrating we were refused planning permission a few years ago for an extension. We can't sell off parts of our land as our plot is deemed Zone Naturalle. We live in the hills 10 K from any village and AV signs are appearing on land everywhere in the area. I did think only areas with elec/water close would be affected but roads have been dug up and utilities laid for several Ks. Travelling around France noticed this appears to be happening in many regions, groups of new houses sprouting overnight.

Did think about objecting on grounds that the narrow roads can't cope but that will probably end up in our house being knocked down to widen roads [:'(]

Guardian - very interested to hear why your Lawyer thought usage could not be changed

[Gardian]

WB - appreciate the Clochemerle advice.  Will be keeping tin hat on - trouble is that the Mairie & plot owner / developer will be getting a deposition from the Tribunal in the post in the next few days. They are obliged to respond (Mairie will play a 'straight bat'), but it should cloud the water a bit.

Ernie - you're probably right, but you've got to try haven't you?

Poppy - the plot concerned was merged with an adjoining one (our neighbour's) at the time of construction some 30 years ago. That bit was thus designated non-constructible. Ten yrs ago, the half of the merged plot (i.e. the bit with the house on) was sold to our neighbour.  The unbuilt-on 'plot' is surrounded on 3 sides by our properties.  Our lawyer is adamant that once it became a groupement, then any designation of non-constructible is perpetuelle.  If it was a lotissement, that wouldn't apply.  It is a groupement and he'd better be right, because that's the basis on which we're proceeding!  Hope that's reasonably clear and helps.

[woolybanana]

Just an outside thought Gardian. Was this PdeC granted before you moved there? If so, it should have been picked up by the notaire. I think. In which case he didnt do his job properly.