What is intermediary French ?

[alittlebitfrench]

I saw this question posted on the Anglo Idiot forum, but I think it is quite a fascinating question to be fair.

So what is intermediary French ? So what level is that ?

P.S Before you you throw your toys out of the pram, my French is carp.....as well as my English.

[NormanH]

he Common European Framework divides learners into three broad

divisions that can be divided into six levels; for each level, it

describes what a learner is supposed to be able to do in reading,

listening, speaking and writing. The following table gives an indication

of these levels. A more thorough description of each level, with

criteria for listening, reading, speaking, and writing, is available on

the Internet.^[6]

Level group	Level group name	Level	Level name	Description
A	Basic user	A1	Breakthrough or beginner	Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type. Can introduce themselves and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people they know and things they have. Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help.
		A2	Waystage or elementary	Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment). Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters. Can describe in simple terms aspects of their background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.
B	Independent user	B1	Threshold or intermediate	Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc. Can deal with most situations likely to arise while travelling in an area where the language is spoken. Can produce simple connected text on topics that are familiar or of personal interest. Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes and ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.
		B2	Vantage or upper intermediate	Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in their field of specialization. Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party. Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options.
C	Proficient user	C1	Effective operational proficiency or advanced	Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer clauses, and recognize implicit meaning. Can express ideas fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions. Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes. Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organizational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices.
		C2	Mastery or proficiency	Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read. Can summarize information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation. Can express themselves spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in the most complex situations.

These descriptors can apply to any of the languages spoken in Europe, and there are translations in many languages.

Source (where it can be read more clearly):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

[Tancrède]

I was just about to write exactly what Norman has already posted.  But also had the following on the computer (from a different source), which usefully expresses exactly the same system, but in the form of a self-diagnosing statement on the part of the student.

Very Advanced

I speak and understand English completely fluently.

Advanced

I speak and understand very well but sometimes have problems with unfamiliar situations and vocabulary.

Pre-advanced

I speak and understand well but still make mistakes and fail to make myself understood occasionally.

Upper Intermediate       

I speak and understand well but still make mistakes and fail to make myself understood occasionally.

Intermediate        

I can speak and understand reasonably well and can use basic tenses but have problems with more complex grammar and vocabulary.

Low Intermediate

I can make simple sentences and can understand the main points of a conversation but need much more vocabulary.

Pre-Intermediate

I can communicate simply and understand in familiar situations but only with some difficulty.

Elementary

I can say and understand a few things in English.

Beginner       

I do not speak any English.

[alittlebitfrench]

Very interesting.

So what level are you ?

[idun]

I think that I am lots of levels, and I have met too many UK second year uni students in France who had lots of problems speaking and making themselves understood along with problems understanding.

My french is odd, primitive? naieve like a child's? still, I can do anything I want in France, and even when my own vocabulary was poor would still use the phone and sort stuff out.

So I cannot say what mine is, I only know I have no illusions about it!!!!

[lindal1000]

I am going to classes at B1-2 level. Some days I am at the B2 level and some days I barely make B1, depending on how tired I am, the context of the conversation, etc. B1 is what you need for citizenship. I have a rubbish accent. They tell me I sound like Petula Clark.

[cajal]

[quote user="lindal1000"] They tell me I sound like Petula Clark.[/quote]

Well, if you will insist in going Downtown and instead of coming home you go and Sleep in The Subway, what do you expect?

[alittlebitfrench]

Your a wise old ? Idun.

I have met (and worked with) many French in the UK who would quite happily call themselves fluent in English but we're anything but. More rubbish to be fair.

But does it really matter if you can communicate ?

[Chancer]

I would say that I am pre-advanced +/- one level.

 

I was at the caserne de gendarmerie recently and there were a load of braying Brits trying and failing to make themselves understood, I kept quiet, been there before and its a thankless task but the Commandant when he saw me waiting said to the officer "thats the guy you want, il est bilangue" which I wanted to refute but when I thought about it in termsof communication and as ALBF says, thats what matters, then I am indeed now bi-lingual.

 

I prefer bi-lingual to fluent, I was never even fluent in English and am a lot less so now.

[Chancer]

On the other hand perhaps I should downgrade my English fluency to lower intermediate as I dont have a clue what the following is supposed to mean:

 

Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organizational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices

Innit, nowotimean!

[lindal1000]

My French students understand the rules of English grammar far better than me, and I would guess my understanding of French grammar is better than many French people.

[NormanH]

Let's just say there are several posters on this Forum who don't meet that criterion. [6]

[Patf]

I'm nowhere on Norman's continuum, but french people do seem to understand me when I burble on.

I have a theory that the pronunciation and intonation of english people from the NE  when speaking french is more recognisable to the french than other english accents.

I think Chancer and idun come from the NE too.

[Gardengirl]

<>

I've been told that that is so, Pat. On a French course at the British Institute in Paris a long time ago, the main prof said that he had found that to be true over many years, as many vowel sounds are similar. I'm also from the NE; I'm told that my accent is good - but it's dfficult to know oneself how good or bad it is.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Patf"]I think Chancer and idun come from the NE too.
[/quote]

 

Nope, darn sarf innit!

 

My father was born in the NE and came down as a teenager with the Salvation Army, he never ever had any trace whatsoever of his birth accent, in those days it was something to be ashamed of and hidden [:(]

[alittlebitfrench]

Norman said...

"Let's just say there are several posters on this Forum who don't meet that criterion"

Are you going to name and shame Norman ?

I think there is a lot more to communication that just learning grammar. Learning how to present yourself in different situations is probably just as important. How one behaves in the UK will not work in France and vice versa. Your perfect grammar and accent won't save you if you have already naffed them off.

Another point, watch a French youtube teenager type blogger type broadcast (or whatever they are called) which most kids watch these days in favour of television and then rate your level of French.

[lindal1000]

OH and I went shopping in T K Max in Croydon a couple of years ago and neither of us could understand a word the till assistant was saying apart from the fact that it ended with 'innit'. She was English.

The important thing is that you can do the things you need and want to do in the language required. I have to mark students work that is written in French and my French is woefully inadequate for doing that with any degree of confidence. I can now follow lunchtime conversations but as I often don't know the context of the discussions I can't always join in. Even now, when my day to day French is okay, I am still floored by a throwaway comment in a supermarket. So my French is still a work in progress and I am not satisfied with it. Many people would get by with much less, and it's at the required level for citizenship.

[alittlebitfrench]

I am interested to know what a 'throwaway comment' is in a supermarket lol.

It is also a generational type thing when it comes to communication. I can handle students and kids and people of my own age. Anyone above the age of 50 and I am stumped. Well not stumped, trying to communicate back in a way without them taking offence. It is a completely different type of French. Same for French people in the UK. Nobody wants to sound like an idiot.

[idun]

I have to add to this that as I have met and known people, who's french (or english) is lacking, then I know people with a real gift for language. Some learning french in their 30's with no good english grammar behind them. And I am talking language now, ie speaking, ie langue........ otherwise we would say 'ecrivage'........ wouldn't we[Www][;-)]

And this is, french people speaking english too.

These people are IMO, lucky, they obviously have the 'ear' and a brain function that deals with other languages,  some speak without an accent, or pick up the local accent, how wonderful is that and some have a little accent, but all have great vocabularies.

The rest of us, do our best or don't, is that because they do not really try or just do not have the ear at all.

I shall say again, as I do bang on about it, watch french tv, watch french soaps or detectives or hospital dramas or whatever.......... daily french is all there, the babbling and argot and the ear adapts, even my useless ear.

My written french is lousy, my written english is not good, no wonder I am lost and when anyone mentions all these grammatical terms, I feel like I am drowning in mud with it all.

I am getting old, but know that within five or six years, I had got to grips with everyday conversation, understanding what was said. Didn't stop some people not understanding my awful french accent added to the mix, the way I mangle their language, and I do try. And none of these 'manques' has stopped me.

[alittlebitfrench]

But Idun, Norman won't watch French 'consumer' television or you tube. Chancer has sky TV. I can't imagine Chancer sitting down on a Sat evening watching 'la voice'.

Do they really understand France or French ?

It is a fair question !!!

Us numbties we get by Idun. I can (like yourself I guess) understand what the person is saying to me before they have finished the sentence.

Communication is not just about language.

[Chancer]

I watched nothing but French TV for my first 8 years ALBOF, had no access to English media at all during that time.

 

An English teacher commented that i should start listening to the BBC or do something to arrest the decline of my English, looking at some of the old postings that i wrote at that time I can see what she meant.

 

I put up a parabole and got Sky as well as my Frenct TNT, and you yourself ALBOF were asking how you could get Sky in your Paris HLM you naughty boy [Www]

 

It was, on balance, a bad move as very quickly I stopped watching French TV, not because it is any harder for me but by comparison to what I choose to watch on SKY which is not reality TV, the voice, Britains got whatever, what is on at that time on French TV is crap.

 

I dont watch much TV at all as the evnings I ameither out doing sport or working on the build often till midnight, by far my favorite channel is The Travel Channel and there are some great programs from National Geographic and the BBC, many of them I have seen at our annual Festival de fim animalier international and the awfully dubbed French soundtrack often bears no relation to what the presenter was saying because the muppets leave the English audio almost at the same level, its like being in the caserne with the French trying to deal with the braying Brits all of them shouting over one another.

 

I really miss Thalassa, my life will be changing drastically very soon, I will have some time to set aside for disciplined French TV watching.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ Chancer

I don't remember asking about installing SKY in my HLM ???

I would mind you if they still have the Star Trek Channel. Do they still have that ?

The only thing I watch on UK TV when at home is F1 and Snooker.

TV is hasbeen anyway. Kids just watch youtube these days.

[idun]

Georges Pernoud is no longer going to be making Thalassa, but it will continue, however, there are a few programs that I used to love and now have gone down the nick, IMO since new people have taken over. I just hope that Thalassa is not one of them, as it is a program that we really do try and watch.

France2's Journal de 20h being the other.

And ALBF, I imagine that there are more decent or good french speakers on here than you imagine, me, I come into the as yet unmentioned category, of 'getting by very nicely, thankyou'.

[Chancer]

You did, you wanted it for the kids, good move IMHO, the problem IIRC was with the copropriété and having a parabole.

[NormanH]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Another point, watch a French youtube teenager type blogger type broadcast (or whatever they are called) which most kids watch these days in favour of television and then rate your level of French.[/quote]

I am not certain that those types of programme are a benchmark for a level of French, anymore than  undersanding  the language of a rapper is a standard by which to judge one's level of English, but as a matter of interest I can follow the dialogue in such films as:

L'Esquive  http://www.allocine.fr/video/player_gen_cmedia=18359063&cfilm=48230.html

or Un Prophète  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l69ARbQt-Ko&html5=1

'apart from the Arabic and Corsican dialogue)

Can you?

Here is one for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQuu6hEciME&html5=1

C Cho

PTDR

à +