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Clair, are you paying attention? Useful expressions!


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The use of où (it has an accent in this use) that I most remember is in one of my favourite poems

Demain, dès l'aube...

Demain, dès l'aube, à l'heure où blanchit la campagne,

Je partirai. Vois-tu, je sais que tu m'attends.

J'irai par la forêt, j'irai par la montagne.

Je ne puis demeurer loin de toi plus longtemps.

Je marcherai les yeux fixés sur mes pensées,

Sans rien voir au dehors, sans entendre aucun bruit,

Seul, inconnu, le dos courbé, les mains croisées,

Triste, et le jour pour moi sera comme la nuit.

Je ne regarderai ni l'or du soir qui tombe,

Ni les voiles au loin descendant vers Harfleur,

Et quand j'arriverai, je mettrai sur ta tombe

Un bouquet de houx vert et de bruyère en fleur.

As for the translation isn't the point of 'c'est toujours midi' that in fact it should be earlier, but they are always made late ?

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sweet17 said:

les pratiques font passer l'heure

and they could just have said 'les francais font passer l'heure'.......... because most french people  I know are always late. It was always 'accepted' that the quart d'heure savoyard was fine, and anyone going over the 15 minutes was reprimanded, but frankly, I think being late at all is rather rude.

And if the savoyards have their 15 minutes of tardiness, then in Brittany we always found there was little notion of time at all. We holidayed in Brittany a lot and it is my favourite part of France, but it took some getting used to how bordelique certain aspects of life were. We were highly amused a couple of nights ago when we were watching Capercaillie as they said that at Lorient Intercelitic Festival  they always ended up on stage late, an hour or so after they were due to go on............. [:D]

As to 'ou', well, it  just is, never looked upon other than 'when', no more or less.

And that made me think of ni l'un ni l'autre, where as in english I would say, neither one or the other, so me trying to say ni l'un ou l'autre just doesn't work in french.

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[quote user="sweet 17"]So, here is a sentence from "Regain" by Jean Giono (the book having been recommended to me by none other than Gengulphus from this very Forum!)[/quote]

How funny.  In the middle of unpacking yet more cardboard boxes (I have now found some cutlery, at last), my ears burned so I bustled over to the computer to see what was going on, and it was you !

I am so glad that you are enjoying this wonderful book.  He is one of the very few French authors that I can bear to read again and again.  François Mauriac is the only other one, I think.

It's nothing to do with Regain, but I've just thought of a very good and useful French phrase which I hear all the time, and never use myself, and feel it is long-overdue for adoption.  In fact I am going to incorporate it into my repertoire as part of my New Year scheme of self-improvement.  It is the ubiquitous C'est normal

From now on any bizarre or disconcerting circumstance for which I am responsible, and which I cannot be bothered to explain, excuse or alleviate;  and any behaviour on my part which causes incomprehension through its inconsistency or lack of logic, is simply going to be waved aside with an airy C'est normal. 

It works well for the French and seems to excuse anything, however intolerable.  It has to said, of course, with exactly the right mixture of defiance and complacency.  But the accepted rule seems to be that once you have said it (like 'Fains I' in children's games) it cannot be challenged.

    

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"C'est normal" - I thought was used with a modest shrug when you are being thanked for some kindness/service a bit beyond the call of duty. At the same time as graciously accepting the due thanks, you also want to make the point that, yes, it was at a certain amount of inconvenience to yourself.

So, "Think nothing of it" might cover it.

A French word that came to mind today was "illico". I have never made so bold as to use it In conversation myself, but imagine it to mean "rught away", "pronto", "PDQ".

Angela
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[quote user="Loiseau"]"C'est normal" - I thought was used with a modest shrug when you are being thanked for some kindness/service a bit beyond the call of duty. [/quote]

Oh yes, I was overlooking that more benign sense. 

I was thinking more of the C'est normal by which the plumber airily excuses the soil pipe dribbling into the water inlet, and the bank almost any kind of delay or inefficiency.

 

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[quote user="NormanH"]As for the translation isn't the point of 'c'est toujours midi' that in fact it should be earlier, but they are always made late ?
[/quote]

What interesting posts there have been in my absence!  Many thanks!

First, I'd like to reply to, and disagree with, Norman [:)]

No, I don't think they are made late.

The sentence before the one I quoted says:

Quand le courrier de Banon passe à Vachères, c'est toujours dans les midi.

And the sentence following the relevant one:

Réglé comme une horloge.

No, I think they arrive at midday because it's lunch time.  The next bit of road is steep and the passengers have to get off and walk in order to spare the horses.

They always get to Vachères at lunch time so that they can sustain themselves with bread, sausages and wine before the big hill.

Thank you for the link to the film; I didn't realise they'd made a film.

Giono is not easy to read.  I have started his Le serpent d'étoiles a few times but have yet to manage to finish it.

Is the other film you mentioned, La fille de puisatier, also based on a Giono book?  I ask because in Regain, there is also a puisatier but the man died, drowned digging a well but he didn't have a daughter. 

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[quote user="Gengulphus"]
It's nothing to do with Regain, but I've just thought of a very good and useful French phrase which I hear all the time, and never use myself, and feel it is long-overdue for adoption.  In fact I am going to incorporate it into my repertoire as part of my New Year scheme of self-improvement.  It is the ubiquitous C'est normal

From now on any bizarre or disconcerting circumstance for which I am responsible, and which I cannot be bothered to explain, excuse or alleviate;  and any behaviour on my part which causes incomprehension through its inconsistency or lack of logic, is simply going to be waved aside with an airy C'est normal. 

It works well for the French and seems to excuse anything, however intolerable.  It has to said, of course, with exactly the right mixture of defiance and complacency.  But the accepted rule seems to be that once you have said it (like 'Fains I' in children's games) it cannot be challenged.

    

[/quote]

Well, G, I just want to tell you that I did send you an email but you might have been too busy looking for your cutlery to have read it!

It doesn't matter because wishes are for life and not just for Christmas.........er........no, that one's about dogs, but anyway...............[:D]

I have adopted your hélas with perfect success when I want to say "no" and I do know what you mean about c'est normal.

If that's said to me in the circumstances you have described so vividly, I do have a counter expression:  it's c'est bizarre.

By saying "c'est bizarre", you not actually acusing the person of incompetence (or worse) but you are certainly implying it, especially if you roll your eyes and at the same time look totally incredulous.

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  • 2 weeks later...

[quote user="Loiseau"]Wooly, with respect, you are no lady! So I am not using the F word unless Clair gives it the nod. D'accord? Angela[/quote]

Ok, le mot F....

First lesson of this year this morning and I asked the teacher about foutu.

Specifically, I asked her if it was vulgaire.  She says it's NOT.  It's sort of like cassé, I supppose it's like kaput, but then, that's not an English word either, is it?[:D]

I also gave her the context of my soft-spoken neighbour saying that the boulangerie est foutu.  I daresay that, if one were to write that down, it would have to be la boulangerie est foutuE?

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"Specifically, I asked her if it was vulgaire.  She says it's NOT.  It's sort of like cassé, I supppose it's like kaput, but then, that's not an English word either, is it?"

Sweets,

I think it is rather like saying something is "busted" maybe a bit slangy but not vulgaire.

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If in polite society, something is 'fichu', not 'foutu'

This is applicable elsewhere e.g. 'Je m'en fiche' rather than 'Je m'en fous' etc.

Also for 'ni l'un ni l'autre', it would be neither one NOR the other (not OR). There is of course a liaison between 'one' and 'or' or 'nor', so it sounds the same !

@+

Andrew 44 (just catching up  )

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Bonjour à tous [:)]

It's great that there are people interested and I find that most encouraging for my continuing efforts to learn.  When I say "efforts", I don't mean that it's any kind of a strain.  Au contraire, I find it intriguing, vexing, enjoyable, baffling, uplifting and NEVER dull.

Andrew, it's really good to see you on here, especially as you don't post often;  I'd go so far as to say it's an honour![:)] 

Yesterday, I had my first taste of le futur antérieur and I have not yet get my head around that one......[blink]

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Bonjour à tous [:)]

It's great that there are people interested and I find that most encouraging for my continuing efforts to learn.  When I say "efforts", I don't mean that it's any kind of a strain.  Au contraire, I find it intriguing, vexing, enjoyable, baffling, uplifting and NEVER dull.

Andrew, it's really good to see you on here, especially as you don't post often;  I'd go so far as to say it's an honour![:)] 

Yesterday, I had my first taste of le futur antérieur and I have not yet get my head around that one......[blink]

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The futur anterieur unless I am mistaken is very simple, it is one that I was never taught but just clicked with me one day, I started using it and didnt seem to be getting any confused looks so I think that I am using and understanding it correctly.

in fact I just had to check in Bescherelle to see that it was indeed the tense I thought it was.

Maybe it is more complicated than I think as I am very surprised that you havnt been using it comfortably for several years Sweet17, you will certainly have heard it in everyday speech, perhaps you understood what was being said but didnt have the déclic like me to start using it confidently.

or perhaps I am using it incorrectly but with such confidence that people think I must know what I am talking about [:D] wouldnt be the first time.

To me its avoir in the futur simple combined with the past participle of the relevant verb, j'aurai fait = I would have done, ils auraient été  = they would have been.

J'aurai dû is a case particulier, I use it to express "I would have had to (something) and also to express "I should have done (something) but I am not 100% sure that its correct for both.

I set myself goals in learning the language and a long time after i suddenly realise that I have achived them without realising, one was to be able to express emotion, concern feelings etc, before that everything was very wooden, oui, non, c'est bon, pas bon etc, another was to be able to talk about what Judge Judy called the "shoulda woulda coulda" and using the futur anterieur played a key part in that.

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Bully for you, Chance![:D]

Me, I don't much like studying French grammar and I only learn in any systematic way when I need to, such as when I have les devoirs or need to grasp some aspect of it in order to, for example, understand something I am reading.

No massive problems with vocabulary as I know lots and lots of French words (English ones too!) and I generally manage to make conversation, say what I want and need and be understood.  I'm not so good with listening [:-))] but usually can understand something if I ask for it to be repeated.

The best bit is, I am deffo getting better on the phone as I now don't mind ringing people up and don't mind them ringing me up:  when there is no electronic switchboard involved, I am just fine[Www]

I don't really mind not knowing a lot of grammar and don't care to make any sort of serious study of it as I surprise myself by knowing quite a bit when I need it.  I have seen too many Brits stopping a conversation merely to ask, "how do you say such and such" and "what is the future tense of .....".  That I do find pathetic, especially when the person has been here for a number of years.   I always feel like saying, for goodness sake, just spit it out, whatever it is you want to say and I bet it will be understood readily enough.

I am enjoying the posts here very much and I do hope that people like you will help me keep it alive.  After all, it's not as though the forum, as has been pointed out recently, is a seething hive of activity, is it?

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Listen, guys, I've just seen an email where the person says "j'ai d'ores et déjà préparé........."  She tells me she has prepared for posting the things I have requested from her.

Hm....I suppose she's gone and done it?  Sorry, that's the sort of thing we say in the family, when we want to make a feeble joke about someone having well and truly done something.

Would explain it a mite more elegantly, except I can't think of a more grammatical and better-sounding phrase at the moment[:-))]

Can anyone think of other contexts when you can say d'ores et déjà and it would be just the thing to say?[:)]

 

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You know those toggles that you find on duffle coats?

I thought I heard a Frenchwoman at the gym last night referring to them as "dents de requin".  So, they do look like sharks' teeth, I suppose, but does anyone know whether that's what toggles are called?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi guys, I've been "d'ores et déjà-ing"  all over the place.

On a d'ores et déjà démenagé.

Vous avez ecrit la lettre?  Oui, j'ai d'ores et déjà la écrit................[:D]

Thank you, Norman and Chance for helping to clarify that one for me.

Now I am practising après + infinitif passé quand le subjet des deux verbes est le même.

An example:

Après avoir déjeuné, mon mari a promené la chienne.

Not so easy when you have those pesky pronominal thingies:

Après m'être douchée, je suis sortié [:(]

But, it's really, really good fun![:D]

Besides, I've read somewhere that to be expert in something, you have to practise for 10,000 hours.  Some way to go yet for me![:D]

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