Contracting a team of workers from Poland

[darnsarf]

Our place in France has been in the process of renovation for over 2 years. We've used local artisans for all the work. The quality has been good, though maybe a bit expensive(!). It has been exceptionally slow with certain artisans turning up when they can or feel like it (normally just for a couple of days before we visit each month!). This makes a bit of a mockery of a planned renovation (i.e. first fix, second fix, co-ordination between trades etc). But we're nearly there and we've now got loads of rooms that now require painting and floors to be finished etc.

If we use our existing team of two, working as they do,  not exactly every day(!), we'll still be under dust and paint by Christmas. I reckon I need a team of 6 painters & decoraters for two weeks for the final push to have the place finished. I've tried contacting other local painters and decorators but I'm hit with either lack of availability within a reasonable timeframe or none turning up for an appointment visit prior to a devis. Reluctantly, I'm going to have to consider getting a team in from further afield. I'd prefer not to have to do this since it could be a bit delicate locally though neighbours have expressed some horror at the time it's taken for the work to be completed so I think they will understand. Genuinely, I'm not doing this as a way of having the work done 'on the cheap' - though I suspect it will be cheaper. I'm considering it because I'm becoming a bit exasperated at the time the renovation is taking.

I've contacted UK firms for a quote but most of the time I either get no response, little interest or Polish tradesmen who may or not be legitimate. I've had contact with a company in Poland who are willing to send a team of skilled people down. They can start very quickly and will doubtless work solidly (a friend has used them before though not in France and says they were exceptional).

My concerns are:

I'm assuming it is legal to contract a Polish company to employ Poles in France? - Treaty of Rome and all that.

These workers will not be registered artisans (in France anyway). Is this a problem, apart from insurance, even if their work is only for a couple of weeks? The insurance liability will be carried by the employing company, hopefully anyway.

Does anyone know whether, assuming  the business is legit and pays employers tax in Poland, is this acceptable in France? (i.e. is there a reciprocal agreement, like with UK/France?)

If the company turns out not to be a company and is paying the workers cash, could I be held liable for their cotisations whilst in France? It's the company, not me that's employing them. I'm contracting the company.

 

I understand I'll not be able to reclaim capital gains of the costs in the event of selling the house but this isn't really a bother.

I've tried to research via the web. There seem to be quite a lot of dire warnings about hiring workers 'on the black' but this seems to be talking about individuals. I've not seen anything about using a business or even a businesss which might not actually be a 'formal' one. How am I to know? I don't want to engage people on the black, but I'm a bit worried it may look like I am, to the authorities.

[Patf]

I know of two people who have done as you are considering doing and were pleased with their work. But they never said anything about the legalities of their employment.

You have asked several quite complicated questions, which need a degree of legal knowledge to give an answer. If you want to do everything correctly I think you should get advice from a lawyer experienced in french employment law.

[Scooby]

Totally empathise with you darnsarf - our rewiring is now running into the third year and whilst we want to use local tradesmen we are, likewise, totally frustrated with the delays.  We need to have our tower re-roofed and a local (UK) friend and tradesman has offered to do it for a quarter of the price we have been quoted and in a fraction of the time.  He has done work for us in the UK and we have been happy with the work done so we are very, very tempted.

[zeb]

Have pm'd you, darnsarf.

[WJT]

Zeb could I also have a PM? I too am interested to know more about this.[:)]

[zeb]

Sorry, I've no knowledge of employing Polish labour; I was recommending a local business for the finishing works darnsarf needs doing.

[Nick Trollope]

Same old same old, I'm afraid. IF your Poles are not working in a regulated trade, then yes, the Treaty of Rome allows them to work here. BUT, most building trades are regulated in France (as they are in Poland!). So, the controlling company must be registered and insured to work (in the building trade) in France. They must have a SIRET number and they must be insured with a French insurer. Therein lies the rub.....

 

[darnsarf]

Thanks for the responses. Nick, if I use a business which is not registered in France (i.e. no SIRET), am I in potential trouble or is the (Polish) business? Given that it's largely decoration we're after, I'm less worried about the potential insurances/guarantees than the law.

[BJSLIV]

OK this refers to someone who recruited workers directly

Travail dissimulé dans un château

Le propriétaire d'un château d'Ille-et-Vilaine entame un chantier de rénovation, en 2004, et confie les travaux à une équipe de travailleurs polonais sans les déclarer. Lors d'un contrôle sur dénonciation, les maçons polonais affirment qu'ils sont des touristes en promenade, mais le propriétaire du château reconnaît qu'il les emploie pour des travaux en intérieur. L'homme, âge d'une cinquantaine d'années, a comparu hier, et expliqué qu'il avait eu du mal à trouver des entreprises de la région pour réaliser ce chantier. Le procureur a requis 6 à 8 mois de prison avec sursis et une mise à l'épreuve, afin d'obliger le propriétaire à payer les cotisations sociales et une amende de 20 000 €. Le jugement sera rendu le 3 septembre.

If you employ a Polish firm they will have to register and comply with the full gamut of minimum wages, working hours, French registrations, insurance etc.

If they don't comply I fear that you could be held responsible for employing a non-registered company.

 

[darnsarf]

Hmm, a little too close fo comfort! Thanks for the info. Any idea what actually happened in the case on judgement day? I tried a search and got nowhere.

[dragonrouge]

We live in the Vendee and am not sure where the original posting has its origins?

What I can say is that we have lived in France for over ten years and for a variety of reasons have only used French artisans.  That is not to say that our colleagues are not good they are but where we lived there have been no UK guys so we believe in supporting our village so its gone to the French.

Indeed whilst we have had minor delays none stretching more than a few weeks.  May be we have been lucky but have used the Maire and local people to bring let us say some little bit of pressure.

I know that our local painter who has done all of the work on our house is now struggling due to the economic situation and he would be prepared to travel both to quote for a job and to do the job.  However as we all know distances here in France are problematical so I do not think he would go say to the South of France but who knows.  He is superb and we just think the work he has done for us is wonderful.

Never had experience of importing teams of workers but behind the decision must be a lot of soul searching and perhaps worry!

[dave21478]

I fear that legally it would be too difficult to implement. Doing it on the black leads you open to serious trouble, and I would say the risk of being "denounced" by a local tradesman with a grudge would be very high indeed.

I had all sorts of problems, a denouncement (that came to nothing as everything was above board), silent phone calls and eventualy physical threats from local tradesmen after I got a team in from all of 65km away. The local tradesmen never bothered to turn up to give a quote, despite being asked several times - yet took a serious huff when I brought in people willing to do the work.

 

[Chancer]

My opinionated mate in the house building trade tells me that the government will stop the auto-entrepeneur statute because all the tradesman are getting angry. Bloody good said I, I am sure that is exactly what they wanted to do, stimulate competition.

I watched an "enquéte exclusive" program on black work, it focussed on renovations in the Paris area, they interviewed an owner who was quite happy to talk on camera about only using black labour and showing examples of how much he had saved, when asked he felt that there was little risk of getting his collar felt.

They then followed an URSAAF team raiding a chantier using (presumed) illegal eastern european labour, when they were asked why they didnt raid renovation works like the guy interviewed they said that they had no right to enter onto private property to do a control if there was not a declaration de chantier panneau displayed.

It sent out the message loud and clear - you can do what you like chez vous unless you make the mistake of asking for a permit de construire.

[darnsarf]

Just to be clear, I was not interested in engaging in black market labour, just a way of getting a small army of skilled workers to finish a renovation legally. It now seems this is at best borderline and would probably run the risk of being prosecuted, even if we put aside the local politics, which I do actually care about too. So, I'll now opt for a rather more conventional route - seeking out more quotes from registered local/regional artisans!

[Maricopa]

Darnsarf, you should take a look at this thread.

[darnsarf]

The link doesn't work (for me). Could you check it and re-post?

[darnsarf]

Works now - I'll take a read and get back!

[darnsarf]

So they can apparently work on a temporary basis provided that they are registered for such work in their home country? Interesting. Given that I know not one word of Polish (and therefore verifying credentials may not be simple), I think I'll still go 'conventional'. I've found two separate Brit artisans who are registered in France and, with the help of an existing French artisan, a carpenter. So, hopefully, the long march to completion is nearing its end. ish

Thanks for the link.