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I got this post from a French guy on another forum. Made me think!

 

"A thing to understand about France is that the existing laws are rarely applied in most cases. France is not a "communty based" society but a highly individualistic one, which means that social pressure is not strong. if you break the law, not many people will say something about it. If the governement decides to crack down on something it will be through repression : want people to respect speed limits ? set up automatic radar devices, triple the amount of cops doing random speed chacks and ask them to increase the number of fines they give out...

governmental policy is really hypocritical, heavily institutionalised, slow moving. In a way revolutions are a telltale sign of a reactionnary country...

but it's not all bad, far from it.

 these aspect of french mentality can be in fact at times highly enjoyable, or despicable, depending on the circumstances. A lot of it comes from the fact that france is a buffer zone between latin europe and northen europe. A weird mix..."

 

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Quite so. For every law or guideline in France, there is most likely another that says exactly the opposite. The trick is to find the ones that apply to you and your situation.

That's why even the simplest procedure has an infinite number of different interpretations.

It can of course, also be extremely frustrating.

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I find that interesting and wonder what the implications are for British immigrants here?

There seems to me to be an imperative to create a class system, both in our own local areas and on forums such as this, where other UK immigrants are classified and looked down upon by those who consider themselves the intelligentsia.

This particular forum seems to me to have become more and more spiteful recently and I'm beginning to feel uncomfortable about logging on.

Would we all be better off if we minded our own businesses and just got on with our lives?

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Well absolutely La Bez, couldn't agree more with you, and I'd like to add a few things to your spot-on assessment of the situation. If it were just (carefully argumented) criticisms, well fine, great even, that would spur a debate, and what better than a debate or two to have in a Forum like ours ? But, the Intelligentsia ? a class system ? Not sure they are the right terms La Bez, these people could not tell Class if an Intelligent person hit them in the nose with it, more like 'crass' anarchy to me, regimented by the touchy Thought Police and dangerously condoned by ADMIN (more hits on yr site, is that the real reason James ?), whereby it is OK to throw gratuitous insults at others, those who have the temerity to express opinions, often jokingly in my case, that rankle with them.

Unfortunately I am an 'occasional' on here, can't come to this site very often at present (severe work commitments and personal matters have a tendency to get in the way), I thought I was going to be able to a few weeks ago but following massive and sudden staff probs (and desertion !) at my school and with an inspection looming I was persuaded to take on 200 roles at the same time, well what wouldn't you do for the good of the nation, hein ? Unfortunate as I like to answer queries and help others if I can, and most importantly because I derive a great deal from our resident S.K.A.W.U's (So Knowledgeable And Witty Users). Undoubtedly, now more than ever I feel since I've been registered on here (May 05), they deserve praise, after all they are the ones registered and non-registered users in their great majority log on 'to be with'. A few names spring to mind obviously (Christine, SB, TU, Miki, Tresco, Ray, Dick, MotorHead, and many others), sincere apologies to the many other SKAWU's I haven't mentioned, it has been a while since I've been with you.  We should now all celebrate our SKAWU's, they are our treasure and they are truly unique, let's not get too despondent because of a few users who really are no more than amoebas who have acquired an ego by mistake, probably 'coz it rhymes with Lego.

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You're right; "pecking order" is probably a more accurate description than "class system" but oh! how these people love to put other people down.

I rely on the forum for the truly useful postings, although I'm still waiting for the 100% solution to moles and I'm fine with deeper debate but could we have less of the knee-jerk responses particularly to the innocent newcomer?

Some people need to realise that their postings make them appear as superior, small-minded busy-bodies who really do need to get a life.

I'm endlessly grateful to the ever patient Will the Conqueror and several others and I've finally started to appreciate Furry Knickers but I'm fed up to the back teeth with the deeply unpleasant posters and there are too many.

I'm beginning to agree with Groucho Marx on this one.  "I would never join a club that would have me as a member."

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[quote]I find that interesting and wonder what the implications are for British immigrants here? There seems to me to be an imperative to create a class system, both in our own local areas and on forums suc...[/quote]

"Would we all be better off if we minded our own businesses and just got on with our lives?

No it would not, because the Forum would die, The next time you have a query about car insurance or French systems or customs, do you really want everybody to think, No, I won't answer that it is none of my business??

With all  things people have different opinions and occasionally express them, there are issues like untaxed UK cars and UK builders working cash in hand here that make many people see red and write in blood. .

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That's slightly unfair Ron, I've been a forum member and living in France for three years and have tried to help other members on a range of different subjects whenever I thought I knew what I was talking about.

The ever escalating ranting that's going on at the moment isn't very adult is it?  It also begs the question "Haven't people got anything better to do with their time?"

The oiriginal posting was interesting because it portrayed the French as having a different view of society to the LF ranters.  I think that's worth of deeper debate but here we go again; a patronising response that assumes knowledge of facts not in your possession.

 

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[quote]That's slightly unfair Ron, I've been a forum member and living in France for three years and have tried to help other members on a range of different subjects whenever I thought I knew what I was tal...[/quote]

Not meant as a personal attack Bez, sorry if you read it that way. I have deleted the "offending"sentence.

By the way, there must be a mistake with your profile as it says you have only been a member for one month, not three years

 I was just making the point that if everybody minds their own business, answers to questions like you have posted recently would go unanswered.   It is very easy to look at a question and think "Oh not again! that is the 20th time this year it has been asked, do a search and not waste people's time", but we all started somewhere on here and if we ALL minded our own business it would be a poorer world and Forum for it.

Yes, there is some ranting going on here at the moment, but it will die down when one person stops trying to annoy people and the other gets a SIRET number

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Apology gladly accepted Ron. Due to my ineptitude with IT, I deleted all my cookies and then found the easiest way to get back on was rejoin as la bezarderie.  I was linnorton before. 

I'm deeply appreciative of all the posters who give advice, particularly when questions have been asked a zillion times before but I'm at a loss to understand the nastiness that creeps in on too many occasions.

I don't think the French authorities have asked any of us to police the activities of other Brits so why is it such a preoccupation?  If the French aren't inclined to do it to each other why don't we follow suit and get on with our own lives?  That is the point I'm trying to make.

 

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If the French aren't inclined to do it to each other

What a strange thing to say, La Bezarderie!  Of course there are French people who will grass on others.  They're humans too, you know, with all the same little annoyances and dislikes and pettinesses.

I must admit I've missed the point of your objections to this thread.  France as an individualistic culture is something that often comes up, in France, by French people.   But if you're not personally interested in that kind of analysis, you naturally won't come across it, just as I couldn't name very many French footballers (2, to be precise, and you all know who ONE of them is!!), nor could I tell you the name of a good French wine.

I do know that PSG stands for "Partir Sans Gagner".    And it was a Frenchman who told me that, so it must be true.  Can you confirm, Vraititi? 

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I thought that was what the original post said, that the French are disinclined to complain about others failure to comply.

I don't know if that is true but if another posting on another topic was accurate, that either 40% or 60% of the French economy, can't remember which, is black then there isn't a lot of grassing up going on.

I do believe that if governments take too much of peoples earnings they drive their economic activities underground in the same way that neighbouring countries with disharmonius (is that a word?) rates of duty find they have problems with smuggling.

That's human nature and laisser faire would be my inclination.

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This has always been of the more enduring stereotypes between France and England. Broadly speaking France is seen (maybe less so now) from the UK as 'individualistic' (whatever that really means), and the UK as more of a gregarious, let's-do-everything-together sort of society, etc. Well, there's obviously a bit of truth in that but when you start unpicking the whole tangle of reasons, realities, and so on, you soon find out that there are so many exceptions to that statement that by the end, you cannot help concluding, once more, that it is really but a lot of b*******.
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Mod hat off

Ron has a good point Lin, there are people on these boards who have worked long and hard to establish their businesses and lives in France. When they see people who are fairly recent arrivals, lack experience, siret numbers and probably insurance, give very questionable advice, not once, but time and time again, are they just to stand aside and let a fellow forum member go completely the wrong way, which sometimes could have serious consequences ?

Also my experience of human nature tells me that to some extent you will be judged by your compatriots.

How do Val 2 and Punch feel when they turn up to price a job and because some UK 'fly by night' has done a shoddy job they have to work twice as hard to get the work ?

As for the car thing - yes, lets all stand by and watch these people drive cars that are legal neither in France or the UK. It's not our business - that is until it's our child that is involved in an accident with them or a French neighbors child perhaps - how will you feel then ? I've already posted that my god daughter suffered a broken neck in a hit and run, now she has got over the initial injuries, been left in constant pain and is suffering from depression because of the stress involved in making a claim from the 'uninsured loss board' (and I have a feeling there may not be one in France) to get any sort of compensation. So its a subject close to my heart and I do feel strongly about it.

I would actually rather not feel ashamed of my fellow Brits but sometimes..........

Tempers do flare,but those posts are normally balanced by the amount of light hearted banter, advice and other 'stuff'

Rant over.

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I do know that PSG stands for "Partir Sans Gagner".    And it was a Frenchman who told me that, so it must be true.  Can you confirm, Vraititi? 

You cheeky thing, it's meant many different things over the yrs in our short but glorious history, but yeah I suppose of late (until this season I hasten to add) it's been dire. The worst really was when we had Laurent Perpère as Chairman (now LOOK AGAIN at the name) as few yrs ago, I remember Laurent Ruquier (host and famous 'humoriste') on France2 saying: 'No wonder PSG can't win any game with Laurent Perpère at the helm, they should have appointed Monsieur Gagnegagne' he's so witty this Ruquier ! This yr is more like 'Paris S'enflamme Grave', well until the next 'crisis', probably right on cue, January as usual !

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I don't necessarily think that people should turn a blind eye to flagrant breaches of the law but there's an awfully big tendency on this forum for people to make sweeping assumptions when they are not in possession of all the facts.

I assume that the French lady who gives me conversation lessons doesn't declare the money to the taxman but I don't know.  The same for the farmer we buy wood from. I assume that there was something dodgy going on when an English friend buying a caravan from a French dealership was asked to bring in a cheque for 60% and the rest in cash but again, I don't know.

It's the knee-jerk responses that bother me.

Should I feel sorry for Val2 and her husband when "on the black builders" have been in before them?  Of course not; the cowboys are just as likely to have been French as English.

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Yes I think people tend to jump to conclusions too quickly and say "Report them!" too easily. On one forum someone recommended reporting anonymously by letter to the gendarmes, which is really sneaky. But if we were in business and we had proof that someone who was not registered was undercutting us and taking our customers, then we perhaps would first warn the person and if they continued,  report them. But I'm not sure, not being in that position. To go back to the buffer zone, we are in the south and the locals are mostly very swarthy, dark skinned and dark haired, so seem to react more like the mediterranean nations, quite dramatic and emotional. We were reported once for something but by a Parisian "immigrant". Other people disapproved of what she had done. Pat.
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[quote]I don't necessarily think that people should turn a blind eye to flagrant breaches of the law but there's an awfully big tendency on this forum for people to make sweeping assumptions when they are no...[/quote]

It is quite legal to pay cash here you know Bezzie the log man may well declare for TVA....... but you do not have to be in business to sell things, take E bay for example. 

The CARAVAN aarrrgghhh deal is probably legal and above board as I seem to recall sometime ago on here that you cannot pay cash over a certain amount here?  And so part cash-part cheque may be actually the only legal way of paying.  Anyway who knows a CARAVAN aarrrgghhh  owner who is not totally legal (or is that only when it comes to staying 20 KPH below the speed limit on a windy road for 25Km's

Sorry for last bit totally off topic but as you can see the word CARAVAN aarrrgghhh  has a strange affect on me 

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And that is exactly what I mean Ron.  I had no idea that you can't pay cash over a certain amount although I wonder why, in the case of the caravan the buyer wasn't allowed to write a cheque out for the lot, which was his intention.

There's loads of things I don't know about France and I think the same is true of other people which is why I'm trying to make a point about knee-jerk responses.

Now, if someone could just explain to me why the French don't make shower gel containers with hooks on, I'd be prepared to believe that everything here makes perfect sense.

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Re: the original comment that started this thread.

Since moving here I have take-up (or restarted) a couple of activities that involved joining clubs. I have noticed a major difference between UK and French recreational clubs – the French ones are not cliquey. In the UK many clubs are built up of a number of close knit and pretty closed groups of people (who have often known each other for years). Whilst newcomers are initially made welcome (with the words), it can be very difficult to fully enter and participate for quite some time. French clubs on the other hand seem quite the opposite and not cliquey in the same way – you are dragged in to participate all the time. Does not only relate to me as I have seen exactly the same with French people joining the organisations (in fact with me it is probably harder due to my limited language skills).

Anyway, I actually asked somebody about this once and it was explained to me that the probable reason is that French are more individualistic and thus do not tend to form such close knit cliques as easily as Brits – which to me confirms the initial post.

Ian

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