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About time too!


Tresco
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I once posted about my surprise that French girls coould marry at 15 years old.

The law is being changed and the age raised to 18.  Hopefully the law will  help reduce forced marriages too There are also increased measures to counter domestic violence.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=177021028&p=y77xzy734

In fact there's a whole pack of good stuff in there.

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I was pleased to hear about the new measures to counter domestic violence in France.  If you want to read about the current appalling situation of some women in France, have a look at the recent Amnesty International's report "France.  Violence against women: a matter for the state" (look for AI Index EUR 21/001/2006 under www.amnesty.org).

 

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Where I live domestic violence is common and no-one seems to find it very strange.   It's good news to hear that something is happening about it, even though I think it will take a long time for lots of people's attitudes to catch up with the law.

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[quote user="Dotty0"]

Its amazes me the amount of things you learn on this site.  I had no idea that girls could marry at 15.  Glad its changed.

Dotty [/quote]

Dotty, when I found out I posted with the title 'This surprised me'. I can't believe I was so restrained, because really I was gob-smacked.

 I'm so glad about this package. I do and I don't have a problem really with 'arranged 'marriages, but for a girl of 15-17, how could she possibly give informed consent. At least 18 year olds have a chance to break away if they are being forced into an unwanted marriage.

Even girls of that age who are not being forced, but just 'fall in love' - the rate of break down when one or both partners is very young rises dramatically.

Then there's the Female Genital Mutilation thing. Grrrrrrr

It does take a long time to change attitudes, but Laws do help speed things up a bit sometimes.

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Tresco

Sorry to be naive, but what about the consummation part.  What is the legal age for sex.  Surely this plays a part in the marriage.  In my mind France is/was mainly a catholic country and thought that consummation was an important part of the marriage.

Sorry if I've got it completely wrong. 

Dotty

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Dotty O,

15 is the age for girls, definitely (or was)

I don't know whether the law has changed in respect of that, all the pieces I have found so far are as short and lacking in detail as the one I linked to. Someone who can read detailed legal French may fond something and paraphrase for us. (or post a link, I can get there in the end LOL)

Now I fully expect someone to come along and tell me for boys the age of consent is 13 or somesuch.

 

 

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I did a concert 2 weeks ago for "la journée de la femme" in aid of an association called ISES  for abused women in the 31 department [email protected]. I was violently abused as a child right through to my early twenties by my mothers partner as were my 3 younger sisters, I got so much satisfaction singing for and then sharing my experiences with these very fragile women, and they in return were amazed to see that you CAN change your whole world around through music, travel and like me rebuild your dignity.  Domestic violence SHOULD NOT be something that is taken for granted, just turning up at some of these Maisons des Associations and chatting with victims can make a huge difference to their self-esteem.[Y]
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[quote user="Tresco"]Now I fully expect someone to come along and tell me for boys the age of consent is 13 or somesuch.[/quote]

No, it's 18. Boys had (have) to wait until their majority while girls could be "disenfranchisée" by their parents at 15. Technically, that meant they were majors and could make their own decisions. But obviously, this wasn't what happened. It was also possible for a girl to amrry under the age of 15, if the president (no less) allowed it.

As far as I know the age of consent is that same as legal marriage age. Maybe somewhat surprisingly, the average age for the first sexual experience is around seventeen and a half.

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[quote user="Dotty0"]Sorry to be naive, but what about the consummation part.  What is the legal age for sex.  Surely this plays a part in the marriage.  In my mind France is/was mainly a catholic country and thought that consummation was an important part of the marriage.[/quote]

Dotty, this could be a completely different direction, but you might be surprised to find out how many of the couples you know aren't married, even older ones.

Mistral, that age does seem to me to be very high. 

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[quote user="SaligoBay"]

[quote user="Dotty0"]Sorry to be naive, but

what about the consummation part.  What is the legal age for

sex.  Surely this plays a part in the marriage.  In my mind

France is/was mainly a catholic country and thought that consummation

was an important part of the marriage.[/quote]

Dotty, this could be a completely different direction, but you might

be surprised to find out how many of the couples you know aren't

married, even older ones.

Mistral, that age does seem to me to be very high. 

[/quote]

What with all the hours they put in at college and lycée I'm surprised

that they can find the energy to have sex at all before they leave full

time education!

17 and a half is about typical for Europe: it is the UK and US that are

exceptional. I put this down solely to the poor quality of pop music on

the continent.

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[quote user="jond"]


17 and a half is about typical for Europe: it is the UK and US that are exceptional. I put this down solely to the poor quality of pop music on the continent.
[/quote]

Yes, bad rhythm .

The Aussies seem to be fairly sexually active at a younger age, if their soaps are anything to go by.

On a more serious note, I see that the Government are going to 'discuss' banning female circumcision. No doubt this will lead to protests about lack of understanding of cultural differences, but I hope that those caught inflicting such horrific crimes will be severly punished. I think it is a vile, obscene and mysogynistic (sp) practice;

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Yes, I thought 17.5 was very high too. But I found it on several websites (official gov type ones) Even taking into account the fact that most people lie when they are asked questions about sex (but would they be adding years or taking them off?) it surprised me. Apparently it used to be higher (in line with catholic "latin" countries) but has recently come in line with more northern european countries. I have no idea of the age in the UK.

Recently I came across a "when was your first time" type thread on a french parenting forum and most people seemed to be going for 14/15. That sounded  closer to what I would have expected from talking to my 4emes and 3emes

 

 

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The french authorities have prosecuted parents who have mutilated their daughters, so there must already  be a law against it in France.

 Tis a truly evil thing. I first heard about it on Woman's Hour in 79 or 80. I remember telling an older lady at work and she didn't believe me.

 

I agree with Jond,  those long school days etc.

However, I find lots of french lads and I am including my own in this generalisation very very immature even when they are 18-20. So it sort of doesn't surprise me that the age mentioned is so high. The girls seem to mature a little earlier, but not as early as my english friends daughters.

I sort of put this maturity down to having part time jobs, as bar one, every english kid I know had a part time job from a young age. And ofcourse not only are they nigh on impossible to find in France but there is no time to have one either. And I am sure that working makes a person grow up faster.

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My daughter (13) tells me the boys in her year are very immature compare to those in the UK.  Apparently they hit the girls at school and seem to just generally annoy them.  I also think they have less respect for women in France and perhaps this rubs off onto the younger generation.  This making them less likely to put the girls on a pedestal and being generally less interested.

Dotty

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TU

Agree totally on the question of female genital mutilation.

Your second point rather depends on your definition of maturity. I'm not sure that I would agree with the definition that your reply implies. I'd be interested if you could clarify this a bit.

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TU - the law against genital mutilation is, I think, part of the European Human Rights legislation. Or at least is interpreted that way. I know that it is illegal in the UK but still goes on, but I can't recall any prosecutions.

I had one poor kid, a Somali girl, who was circumcised (in London) and in the end became quite mad, partly through it leaving her in constant pain, and partly through the violation. A vile, disgusting business, and almost worse because it is done by women to girls.

I've just been doing sex ed with Year 9 (14 years) and most of them think that people boast in surveys rather than lie! They also think (at the moment) that 16 is too young, but of course that may change as they approach the magic age.

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17.5 Is the generally age for countries like France and Holland.

In the UK the average is 14. With some children as young as 12 willingly having sex.

This figure it would seem even by the government is put down to poor sex and relationship education in Britain.

Not surprisingly then that STI's are a record levels in the UK and there seems to be a crisis going on.

Incidently Sex and relationship education is not compulsory in the UK and some schools even go as far as to acks parents permission to teach the basic biology style lessons to their children.

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In the UK it is just below 16. Sex Education is compulsory but parents have the right to withdraw their children on conscientious grounds (the only time this has ever happened in my experience is a Jehovah's Witness family). There is no need to ask permission to teach any topic in the National Curriculum.

Where do you get this information from?

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DS  I saw a 'reportage' about the FGM case in France many years ago. And at that point I had thought,  that there was established law in France against this practise. Whether there was or not at that time, I was pleased that there had been a prosecution.

As Iman is somali and I had sort of hoped that she would campaign against this. One can only wonder if she herself was the victim of this too as it does seem to be an integral part of somali culture. I know that the somali  model Waris Dirie, a victim of FGM, started campagning against FGM several years ago.

 

I agree that women will do this to girls makes it a complete abomination.  What happened to this girl? did you ever hear?

 

 

 

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One problem now is that people are increasingly taking their daughters to hospitals, or getting the mutilation done by medical practitioners elsewhere, rather than by the traditional 'woman' .

This is happening in many countries in the African continent where the practice is banned, and not just in Europe.

Doctors and nurses are doing these 'operations' early in the morning or late at night, under the guise of treating some made up condition.

Also, the age at which it is being done seems to be dropping to between 6 and 10, because older girls are being made aware of the dangers/horrors of it by activist health campaigns, and are refusing to submit to it.

It's estimated that 130 million women have been subjected to FGM. Another 'crime against humanity' in my book.

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I would hope that there WAS such a law, TU, and that it has been enforced. One problem in the UK has been that social services departments (and as basically sex abuse it often comes to them first) have considered it 'cultural' - I'm not joking, it was said in my presence, and that they would be acting in a racist way if they stopped it. Despite what I've posted elsewhere today the police didn't go along with that, but when things got a bit warm the kid in question was whisked off back to Somalia. With social services help... they were told she was going to Disneyland. I kid you not. Mind you, I wouldn't have believed it if I wasn't there. It wasn't an isolated case, either.

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I saw a book in Carrefour the other day about FGM. The title said something about a technique whereby they are  able to reverse FGM.  Methinks it would be better just to stop it.

Sadly in some of those african countries where they don't do this, they have some other horrible things that women 'have done to them'.

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[quote user="Dicksmith"]I would hope that there WAS such a law, TU, and that it has been enforced. One problem in the UK has been that social services departments (and as basically sex abuse it often comes to them first) have considered it 'cultural' - I'm not joking, it was said in my presence, and that they would be acting in a racist way if they stopped it. Despite what I've posted elsewhere today the police didn't go along with that, but when things got a bit warm the kid in question was whisked off back to Somalia. With social services help... they were told she was going to Disneyland. I kid you not. Mind you, I wouldn't have believed it if I wasn't there. It wasn't an isolated case, either.
[/quote]

Dick that is the sorriest tale I have heard for a long time about Social Work/ers, and I hear a few.

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