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The state of the Catholic church in France


DZ
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I've got a sociological question:  I have been wondering since Easter about the state of the Catholic church in France.  This being predominantly a Catholic country, I expected to see a big congregation on Easter Sunday but was surprised to see that only old people and a handful of children went to church and virtually no young or middle-aged people.  The Church in the UK seems positively vibrant in comparison.  Is the Church dying out in France?  Or maybe it depends on the village/town you are in? 

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The church near us has a mass once every 6 weeks, as there are so few Priests.

I know someone who is a priest in England, and when he comes over to holiday with his parents he gives a couple of masses ( he speaks good French) and is very welcome by the dwindling number of people who want to attend Mass.

Yes, I think the Catholic Church has big problems, both with recruitment of priests, and worshippers.

Edit: I'm surpised to hear that you think they are doing better in UK.

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Yes I agree with Tresco. The Catholic church is in trouble here. The only people who seem fidele to the cause are the older generation, as church attendances are mostly down .  Most villages have have a church which has to be maintained and kept in good order, and in the words of our local maire "L'entrtetien de les eglises sont un catastrophe pour le petits communes en France" , as they are a heavy burden to keep maintained.  Our Maire asked the catholic organisation if he could open the church up during the week for club rendezvous and such like , but they refused quite strongly and only will allow religously the fortnightly masses!  What a waste of a beautiful building which is used for just one evening every fortnight; In fact funerals are the only thing keeping it running. . At my daughters Catholic college more and more pupils are choosing to do another language (Spanish or German) rather than catche (sp?). I've been to many church services in france for obligatory school events, funerals and weddings and such like and it seems to me the younger generation are forced by their parents to attend ordinary church services, rather than wanting to be there. In fact I find very little difference between a funeral service and a normal service .If church services were made more interesting and not so depressing than maybe things would be different?
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I've been here 6 years, and never had cause to set foot inside a church, apart from concerts or tourist visits.   Maybe because the population round here is younger, there's just not the interest.   It's definitely for the old people.

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>>>...At my daughters Catholic college more and more pupils are choosing to do another language (Spanish or German) rather than catche (sp?)...<<<

You mean to say catechism or catéchisme.  My experience of catéchisme as a youngster made me see the light (so to speak) and soon I opted for another language. These youngsters have quickly worked out that anotherlanguage, in this secular world that they will have to fight to find a place and live in, is of more use for which I warmly applaud them!

>>>...I've been to many church services in france for obligatory school events, funerals and weddings and such like and it seems to me the younger generation are forced by their parents to attend ordinary church services, rather than wanting to be there....<<<

It was the case then, is now and will be, that the young generation is being forced to attend church. I know I was by my Mother, my Father was an agnostic/atheist (and a heathen/devil incarnate as far as my Mother's family was concerned) I just don't understand to this day why he never said anything against the indoctrination of his children by his 'out-laws'. You will read that I am not of any religious disposition of any kind. To me religion is just like politic. It should be left to the individual to discover as he/she grows up as their individual experiences shape them to which they want to embrace. In the mean time I am kind and considerate to my fellow human beings which by any definition describes me as a christian which I should not be as I have not embrace any kind of religion, more sort of switch off the subject after my childhood experiences.

>>>... In fact I find very little difference between a funeral service and a normal service .If church services were made more interesting and not so depressing than maybe things would be different? ...<<<

I sometime have to go church (weddings, christenings, funerals) and I much prefer, as well as thouroughly enjoy paradoxically, being in an anglican church than a catholic church. If the catholic church was more forward looking as the anglican church is, the services would be more vibrant and appealing which would attract more youngsters. But until the Vatican behaves as it does today, being so dogmatic about life in general, with no relevance to their message with the modern world around them - I would liken them to the remant of some dinosaur age - the catholic church will only attract the old dears waiting for the Purley Gates to open and the little kids who are sent their for parental pride consumption.

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I introduced myself to the local priest last week, in connection with our son's proposed wedding over here. He was extremely cordial and supportive over the whole thing, given that the Mairie has given the OK (see previous thread on the subject).

Anyway, he has only been here a few months and I asked how many churches he has to cover. It's eight and he operates single-handed. He said that our local commune church only gets a Mass once every 3-4 weeks.

My only observation would be that there seems to be little or no involvement by the Church in the local events (Fetes Votives etc) that I have witnessed since we came over here. The RC church in the large town that we came from in the UK was very active in promoting and supporting such things, to the extent of running a big 'May Fayre' which was always well-attended.  I wouldn't want to step on anyone's religious toes over this, but surely in the 21st century, the Church has to be pro-active in encouraging  new and lapsed attendees?  I don't see much of that over here.

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... waiting for the Purley Gates to open ...

So now we know. Heaven is just south of Croydon. No wonder religion is no longer popular.

I suppose I call myself a "cultural christian" ... for the most part the basic values of christianity have shaped the nature of European culture and I find this congenial. However, the continued obsession of the old men of the Vatican with the sex they (officially) deny themselves means that they have driven a wedge between themselves and the people they regard as their flock. The heartland of the Roman Catholic Church now is South America. If it wants to be seen as relevant to Western Europe it has a lot of work to do - and quickly.
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I personally believe that catholic church needs to get a grip with the times.  My catholic children did their first communion and then I thought hang on.... A small child being asked what sins he has committed by a man who doesnt even know how to pay a gas bill?  No.  I agree with Clarkkent, I choose to take the cultural christian route.

As for priests, why cant a priest marry?  I dont mean to be rude here but if a priest is denied a relationship, he will certainly dream about one (if you get my meaning).  It is the way god made him after all.

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Yes Beryl you are correct.  I think a married man in more normal surroundings (and by that I mean not relying on a housekeeper for everything) would in most cases far better serve his congregation.  He would have more similar goals, achievements and problems.  But there you go.  I cannot see this new pope changing anything either.
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The problem with the Vatican is that it has one foot in eternity and therefore moves slowly. Pope Benedict (or Benoit depending on which side of the Channel you are) is an old man and will not live forever. However, KKK, he has already stated that condoms may be used "to prevent transmitting disease" - which is a very significant step indeed. Perhaps he may just open the door to modernisation sufficiently for his successor to be effective.

Incidentally - celibate priests: I was always told (during the indoctrination which accompanied my childhood) that priests didn't marry so that they could devote all their energy to their flock. However, I believe that it was introduced to prevent priests passing church property to their offspring!

Anyone remember about 25 years ago, the Cardinal Archbishop of Paris dropped dead in a brothel? It was put about that he had been there ministering to fallen women. I wonder?
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[quote user="Clarkkent"]However... he has already stated that condoms may be used "to prevent transmitting disease" - which is a very significant step indeed. [/quote]

I understand there is a 'paper' going around which does indeed make this recommendation. I think the main argument is that married couples, one of whom does not have HIV, should be accorded the right to have a sexual relationship without risking the infection free partners health.

Whether it will be more broadly applied would be very significant, and welcome.

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Its always amazed me, the hypocrosy here about church. The messe has but a handful of faithful regulars,but have a baptême,wedding or funeral its packed to the rafters and what about this confirmation stuff? Again the kids only do it to get their presents,neither they or their parents are seen again in the church as regulars. Think its about time the catholic church joined the 21st century and let priests marry and have families and updated the services with more music.Most of my neighbours seem to avoid the church like the plague except for the functions which include food and drink.
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>>>...Anyone remember about 25 years ago, the Cardinal Archbishop of Paris dropped dead in a brothel? It was put about that he had been there ministering to fallen women. I wonder?...<<<

At least he did not touch innocent children as some clergy (of any denomination you may care to call) do through out the world ! 

Let's be honnest and blunt about it ! It does happens !

You can not expect a human being not to have any carnal desire at any time of his/her life, it is in the human DNA to have such feelings. This notion of denial of certain pleasures by the clergy, in order to save the world or whatever, is plain silly.

What is even more abnormal and abhorent is the way in which these desires are quelled by some members of the human (clergy or not) kind... The difference between the human world and the animal world is that the human has such feeling for procreating as well as purely for recreational purposes, animals have one thing in mind : procreation.

And do these animals worry that God (in any shape or form) exists?... Looking at my dog on his mat... don't think he cares really....

 

Sorry[:$] I really I have climbed onto my soapbox and become quite dogmatic myself, apart from getting this thread off on a tangent. Sorry everyone...

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Got back from work to find quite a healthy discussion on the subject on the forum!  So it is as I thought, ie. pretty hopeless.  Poland will have to start exporting more of their priests.  For some reason (that I do not understand myself), priesthood still seems a very popular option for young men over there!

Mind you, there are some lively centres in France as well, in places like Lourdes.  My teenage son went with his (Catholic) school and loved it so much he decided to go back as a helper next year as well.  He even started going to church after that experience - which is weird after years of not attending (there is no way I would force my children to go).

[quote user="Tresco"]

Edit: I'm surpised to hear that you think they are doing better in UK.

[/quote]

I can only speak from my experience .  All the churches in the UK I used to attend/still go to have been, for the most part,  lively, with a fair number of teenagers and young adults attending.   But I am pretty sure it's not like that everywhere.

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Hi Davieszak

I think that some churches are popular due to the quality of the Parish Priest.

I think paople who still practice (i.e, attend mass more than once a year) will travel some way to a church with a good 'vibe', but so many churches are lying abandoned now, and the numbers of people attending mass have fallen significantly in the UK.

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There is no chance in the world of that ever happening.

If they won't have special dispensation for exceptional cases (mother will die, rape, incest) I can't see that they'll budge on anything else.

People who are Catholic have always had abortions, just as they have always used contraception, when they can get access to the services/products they need.

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hi!  all;  interesting to hear referance to    HIV + condoms  ! in south africa our president - educated at a top british univarsity tells the nation that sex does not transmit aids. i am from natal in RSA + the last i heard that the population there was 70% HIV.????    sid hamba kahle.    
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Hi Supersid.

Probably deep cultural taboos against homosexuality plays a part in this stance.

Aids was first identified as a 'Gay Disease' rather than as a  (fatal) STD. The estimates and figures on rates of infection  in many parts of Africa are, however, staggering.

 

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Our parish priest also has a 'round' of about 6 churches that he covers in turn in our area.  The number of Catholic priests dying ooutnumbers new recruits by about 5 to 1, I was told.  Are they turning to recruits from Africa to boost the numbers, like the UK?

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Actually there was a time, centuries ago, when catholic priests were allowed to be married/have offspring. Now this is going way back, if I remember correctly, beyond the 10th century. Celibacy was actually introduced to prevent valuable church property falling into the hands of a priests family. I'll put my thinking cap back on, if I can remember where I left it, and let you know the book I read about this in. It was an historical book, not a novel,  about England in the early ages and the place of the Roman Church there at the time. A friend of mine years ago told me similar. During his theological studies as a young priest he sort of found out 'too much' about his church and decided the life wasn't for him. I'm RC by the way.
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