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Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing


Luvarmagnac
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We have been in dispute with our plumber for over 6 years, refusing to pay the 2nd part of his bill due to the protracted, overpriced, lash up he made of our home in France. He has infrequently sent us demands, despite an onsite explanation of why etc, to which we have repeated our reasons in writing.

He has now been to a collections agency, who are asking for his 3000Euros plus a load of their "expenses" and interest, totalling over 6,500Euros! We have waited to counterclaim for re-doing the work,repositioning pipework,making the boiler "safe", closure of the gite etc ad nauseum, and were wondering if anyone here can point us in the appropriate direction re lawyers or consumer organisations who assist on the side of the customer. We even wonder if he still has a case after 6 years have elapsed?
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Don't see why he would not have a case. He did the work and you have not fully paid him for it.

I assume that you had a qualified expert to inspect his work 6 years ago when you decided that you were not going to pay him. Seems a bit late to start looking for a legal solution when you should have gone down that route all those years ago. I would think that by now it would be difficult to prove that his work was not up to standard.

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I can see where you are coming from on this but he was informed at the time why we were unhappy, and he made no move to rectify the problem, his only communication was the demand for a cheque every 2 or 3 years. Since he had had 5,700 Euros of ours mid job, and we had a hot water system of sorts we were loathe to get embroiled in the French legal system of which we still know very little.I don't need a qualified opinion to tell me that hidden where possible does not mean slap all pipework to the walls, in plain view!

We also had the side issue of an interesting pool constructor, who was subject to a building inspection and found wanting.
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It is ridiculous to say you have not got a leg to stand on.

Get a lawyer pdq and counter claim - if this 'plumber' was in the right he would have had you in the courts years ago.

It's going to cost a few thousand euros minimum to counter so concider a compromise with your 'plumber'.

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 It looks the guy has gone to the collections agency so perhaps he decided to go for it

We have waited to counterclaim for re-doing the work,repositioning pipework,making the boiler "safe", closure of the gite etc ad nauseum

So has this work been done ?

I wish you luck, but I'd think long and hard, as Dog says if it costs €€€€ is it going to be worthwhile ?

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Thanks all so far.

Everything has been in writing, except our 1st meeting when he doorstepped me with our plasterer, who witnessed me telling him he was not getting anymore than the 5,700 we'd paid so far because.... and a tour of works took place - he just shrugged his shoulders and left and I thought it was an end to it. Like dog says I thought he had accepted my view until we recieved a demand 2 years after. We then, in writing detailed our dissatisfaction in a letter to which he did not respond until 2007. It was not until May this year that a response was recieved in the form of the collection letter. All along we kept thinking he was dropping the matter, as in our original letter we told him we would counterclaim for delay, lost revenue, and re-doing the work, not to mention his gross overcharging of materials, which exceeded the money he wanted from us.

Is there a form of small claims for instance in France? My plan is to pay a buildings inspector - about 350 last time for the pool, then take the obvious evidence to a Houssier, but if theres a cheaper option .....?

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The work has yet to be done, as it would mean closing down the gite, which pays the mortgage, finding a trustworthy plumber, to drain down the system, replace pipework inside ceiling cavities, and chased out walls, then re plaster and box in where not possible to use existing cavities, redecorate the whole gaff. A few months work at best. I've sent him the pricings way back on the 1st response - not a murmur. Thing is its easy to chuck out a demand if you know the form and language, as with small claims here, and I suppose we should have acted immediately, but we just thought he'd seen it our way!
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Thanks Aly I'd kind of thought of that as they gave me advice when the pool was bodged, which is why we got a building inspector, and money returned.

Yes the plumbing has all been fixed to all surfaces of the interior walls rather than hiding the bulk of it, as we stated in the 1st planning meeting, in runs above the ceiling, with short drops to the rads ( about 90% could have been hidden this way). I'll try and get pictures on - it really belongs in the Pompidou Centre, not my living spaces!Oh and yes he is a French plumber.
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[quote user="zeb"]You say that you pipework is not hidden? Is your plumber French?[/quote]

A very succint reply Zeb which has hit the nail on the head.

IMHO, regrettably despite all the invective of the OP I doubt that he has a leg to stand on, I have never ever seen a French plumber make any attempt to hide or box in pipes, moreover they are always run the shortest possible route between fixed points even when the addition of a metre of pipe would mean that they could run down the corner of a room making them easier to subsequently box in, this is not seen as the plumbers responsibility.

As for talk of running the pipes in existing cavities, again to date I have never seen a cavity wall in France but perhaps the OP does have them however it is one thing to thread a cable through a cavity but a rigid pipe is somewhat different.

The plumber may charge you what he wishes for his materials, what is key is what was stated on the devi , if the OP does not have a devi then he has little or no negotiating power. I would also say that after 6 years the time for negotiating is over and that the plumber has probably sold the debt to the societé de recouvrement, they in turn will drag this out as long as possible before the OP is convoqued to a tribunal, in this way they can keep on adding their frais.

Editted. I have added this from your other thread  He has since sent us demands every 2 or 3 years, to which we have replied directly, with the same information - poor job done equals no payment.

The above is not likely to be well received by the tribunal, you should find another way of expressing it.

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Yes Zeb French indeed, though that does not preclude good workmanship.My neighbours had this guys partner do their bath/shower, in entirety, and it is a joy to behold, partly the reason we went to this company. ( they too have since also had double billing from the other/our bloke which they too have refused to pay - and they are French)!

JR.Thanks for the input. Guess I am the OP?Firstly I didn't use the above words exactly but have precied un peux for brevity. In letters to him and the collections people I offered to pay for 2 large parts of the 2nd facture ie a towel rad and a thermostat, amounting to some1200 Euros, but not for made up work which differed from his original devis, which I do indeed have. Running the pipe through/above the ceiling, which is so easy to do, was expressly agreed in our 1st meeting, and was a reason for proceeding! I am sure that somewhere in EU law there must be some consumer rights against rank profiteering - 22mm pipe ( an example only which applies to all materials) costs 2-3Euros per metre in bulk not ten times that at 20plusEuros.

Bear in mind he has had 5600 Euros up front , so its not as if we paid him nowt, but it will cost us a tidy sum to put it right even if I use my friendly plumber, hence we want recognition of this, which he has consistently ignored.

What I would like to know is ;Is there a French equivilent of , Citizens Advice,Office of Fair Trading, or/and Small Claims Court??

I work too hard for my dosh to throw it away.
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Luvarmagnac

Our posts overlapped so I hadnt seen what you had written re the agreement for the pipes to be run above the ceiling.

The following is a guess so please correct me if I am wrong.

Your agreement re where the pipes would be run was not written into his devi.

He carried out the work in your absence with your consent.

He had completed the works before you contested the workmanship.

If the above is more or less correct I really dont think that you will have a fighting chance, perhaps with regard to the made up work but he could easily explain this as extra work that was found to be necessary once the job was started and that youy had agreed to.

It is common I believe for extra work like this to be factured by the meter run of pipe to include materials labour and consumables, perhaps one of the forum plumbers could confirm this. In my experience anything in France that is billed by the unit length or area squared, whether it be digging a trench, plastering, tiling etc is always at an extortionate rate that doesnt reflect the actual cost, mind you the worst example is from the UK, namely carpet fitting, the difference in price between a 10m by 10m room and a 11m by 11m room is 21% whereas the only cost is 4 metres of gripperod and the time to bang in a few nails, although it is now glued.

To answer your question re small claims court equivalent, it is the tribunal d'instance (where I hope to soon have my 5 minutes of fame), it looks like you will be summoned there anyway so that will be your chance to defend your case.

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Hi JR.Correct on the devis. We recieved a devis thinking it was an estimate, not the Lords word on the subject. (As in the UK we presumed it would be an outside guess, not writ in stone, and depending on materials used/time taken maybe less than devis-ed) No mention in it of placement, though my wife and I both expressly remember a long conversation in which he ridiculed the idea of placing the pipe anywhere else but out of sight above the ceiling (its a large bungalow type hence the ease).

Yes the pipe runs were done as a rushed job around Xmas 2002 - Jan 2003 in my absence. We'd been ringing him weekly since August to make a start, and when I told him I was en route for Feb to start the ripping out of plaster, he chucked his son at it for a few days!

Made up work, means work on the devis, put on the facture which was done by myself, such as digging up the bathroom and toilet floors, laying the grillage in trenching from the gas tank, fitting the loo pan back in place, and vanity unit, fixing a stop cock etc.

I understand there is a system whereby materials and work placing are lumped together, but I'm also being billed for labour! He can't have it both ways surely.

Not all work was completed before I complained. Even the other partner ( who did the great job for my neighbours) when he came over for an hour to do something on the boiler, effectively took a look around at the piping and remarked on how poor it was!

I am over again in September and will put in place a visit to a Hussier, Tribunal etc, plus a revisit from the building inspector who checked out our pool to verify wether its substandard work or I'm being picky. Hopefully he will confirm what a guest of ours, also an inspector of works thought, that it was a "bit of a cowboy job". Ah the mastery of understatement.
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[quote user="Luvarmagnac"]He has now been to a collections agency, who are asking for his 3000Euros plus a load of their "expenses" and interest, totalling over 6,500Euros! [/quote]

Has he been to court? I don't think a huissier can do any thing except huff and puff without a  a 'jugement'..

P.S. I am not a lawyer, but I have a sort of 'race memory' of this..

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Verbal instructions following a chat are no good, everything should be in writing.

Pipes hidden wherever possible - so what does possible mean? It could be that it is not possible because the wall would require chasing or is could be possible by chasing the wall. It is possible that I might win millions of pounds. As it was a verbal conversation is he going to say that is what was agreed? Or is he going to say that if the pipes were to be hidden then his quotation would have been higher.

Six years ago - well, it would seem that the installation is functional. How are you going to prove that it is exactly as it was six years ago and that no one else has worked on the system.

I think you have left it far too long and need to pay the bill before you create even more expense for yourself.

Paul

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I have a friend going through something very similar at the moment and this is an ongoing saga which is only a year old - and already it's into a "you said, no I didn't" argument tho luckily they have a lot of paperwork to back them up and a Huissier's report on what was and wasn't done, the inspection done in company with an expert and the report to the Court by the Huissier being properly put together, legally stamped and signed off as being where the breach of contract/devis etc has taken place.

From speaking to the Huissier if you haven't had all the documentation in place, all the right photos of the work etc, you're chances of winning are slim and all you're going to be doing is racking up expense for yourself.

I'd be asking the builder how much he'd take to settle this quietly and then comparing that with how much the Court is going to cost, from what you've said in all your posts, you're going to have a very hard time proving anything and if you signed off on the costs in the first place and then didn't do anything about it, you'll really struggle, especially as you're not resident here - be prepared for adjournments, lawyers getting involved the whole thing.

If you have to attend Court a couple of times and eventually engage a lawyer which my chums have had to do - and they have a really good case against their drunken and theiving builder, gendarmes involved also - so is the cost of all that greater or lesser than paying the guy to just go away?  

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Sorry, should have added, in a conversation with the Huissier and another with the lawyer, they told me that there's an increasing number of etrangers, mainly Brits, who get work done and then think they can use a UK approach to their builders by saying the work isn't good enough, therefore we won't settle the bill.

That ain't the way it's done in France for certain and as a local councillor, I'm looking into complaints about a woman locally, a Brit, who does this on a serial basis and is now getting herself into serious trouble - not suggesting that's the case with the OP but it is a very Brit approach to their problem - AND they didn't understand what a devis is, No 1 rule, don't sign something you don't understand, this Forum has been up for at least 6 years and a simple question here or look in a good dictionary may have prevented some of this happening at all..

And after 6 years, I think no chance to contest now.

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I can't see how you can complain at the price of the materials . You accepted the devis and unless you can show that he is overstating any inflation element what do you hope to challenge?

As for whether the pipe work should be "hidden" ,the only evidence you have is the devis which should state how the pipe is to be installed. This could be done by quantifying and pricing surface and concealed pipework with distinct prices. In the absence of any written spec French norms will apply, that means surface mounted by the shortest route!

You say the boiler needs to be made safe. Presumably it has been in use for the past six years. This may undermine any claim you might wish to make.

 

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I think wrong end of sick is applying here.We told him before work where pipe should be placed! Witnessed. We told him while work was ongoing it should be in ceiling - no result! We told him at completion it was unsatisfactory!Witnessed. No result. He sends us a reprise of the facture. We tell him again why we are unwilling to pay it. He does not reply for 2 years. We tell him again. Another 2 years. No offer has been made to rectify our dissatisfaction, on contrary we have made an offer of the 2 major pieces outstanding, 1 malplaced thermostat next to fire, and towel rad still hanging on 3 brackets! It is he who has dragged this out for so long, as with the initial job.

As for the boiler's safety, yes it functions, but legally should not have been signed off without an exterior drain or so I was told last December by a UK bathroom fitter who sees hundreds of these things? I'd stand to be corrected on this.
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If as I suspect he has sold on the debt to the societé de recouvrement then the time for negotiation has already passed, the mainstream collection agencies who apply the pressure for public companies add something like €45 frais de dossier to the sum being claimed plus eventual court costs etc.

If as you say the debt has now doubled then you are probably up against one of the thug run enterprises, on the positive side if they do actually take this to tribunal you probably have a good chance of winning or getting their fees thrown out, on the negative side you may get some nocturnal visits from some seriously intimidating guys.

It sounds like at present you have more to gain than lose by fighting this, financially that is, it is up to you to decide in terms of your mental and physical well being.

Editted. In the scheme of things the opinion of a UK bathroom fitter regarding a French gas installation is worth about as much as my advice on the French judicial system, I am sure that I will be wiser after the event, being my day in front of the tribunal.

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Having recently gone thro something like this when I refused to pay for poorly installed double glazing there are considerable differences between the UK and France.

I refused to pay and informed the installers that I wanted them fitted properly. He insisted that they were fitted properly and refused to do any remedial work and demanded payment.

I took advice from my assurance legal advice line.

I employed an expert de batiment (at a cost of 900€) who examined the work, and then summoned the installer to a meeting where he pointed out all the defects .

The expert told him that he would have to rectify these defects before being paid and if he refused then it would go to a tribunal  where the expert ( qualified by the court to give an expert opinion) would list all the defects.

He caved in and did the work and I deducted the fee paid to the expert from the final bill.

I was informed by the expert that this is the ONLY way to resolve a situation like this, one cannot just refuse to pay  as per the British way because if the Installer had taken me to the tribunal he would have won, as I had no expert evidence  to back up my complaint.

I suspect it is all a bit late now, 6 years down the line but you could try and negotiate ,but without an expert examination you are on a hiding to nothing.

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Whoah so many replies to answer!

Firstly an expert de batiment is en route in September. My next move will depend on his report; as mentioned above opinions are 2 a penny, however since France is subject to European law, as are we, then for someone who has lots of bathroom projects signed off yearly, and under inspection, has one I would listen to.

The earlier suggestion that I may be a serial non payer is a bit off. The sparky was paid day of finishing, as was the plasterer, the guy who did the trenching for electrics and dug the hole for our pool got his the day he packed up his digger. My bricky was paid weekly, as was the guy who was to render and finish the pool and pool building (he has returned the money following a visit from a building inspector).Everybody we deal with in France gets paid. This exception is because the job was not done the way we wanted it. One should not have to renovate a renovation in my humble opinion.

The delay has not been of our making since we replied to him immediately any communication was received - he waits 2 years to reply, hence 3 letters and one meeting take 6 years. The suggestion that we should move legally against him, when we were satisfied that not paying the balance of the facture settled our account; is frankly ridiculous!

The collectors are, frankly, reputable. A nice little lady or 2 with whom have communicated and had in fits of laughter at my descriptions of the Dali-esque plomberie, so no heavies. Even if there were I have no fear in that direction I assure you.

The legal route suits us fine. After the inspector I think I will issue proceedings against him for re-doing the work to our satisfaction unless he can do it in line with the inspectors wishes.

Thanks all, got my fight back, especially since I just found loads of original paperwork all of which will make interesting reading for a tribunal.
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