Insane story

[noiklosa]

Good evening, ladies and gents

I am going to try being brief. There is this guy, Romanian citizen, who lives in France from like 1995. The rest of the story is his version, and I need to find out if it is plausible.

So this guy says that he did not get the permanent residence yet. His choise, I guess. On the other hand, he says that the French Police forbids him to leave France - 3 years ago, he got into a fight with his ex-girlfriend, the woman filed a complaint and therefore he was forced into staying in France... for years and years.

Now, this whole thing sounds silly to me, but I need your input, perhaps France's legislation is out of this world. 

France and Romania are both EU members, so I can guess, by the same token, that a French citizen who gets into a minor domestic incident in Romania, will not be kept against his will, indefintelly, in Romania.

This guys' situation - not being allowed to leave France - lasts for 3 years now. He says so, I am only presenting his story. However, 2 years ago, he managed somehow to sneak into Romania (by plane, lol). He got back in France after 2 weeks, by bus.

Also, what kind of police force into her right mind would force a FOREIGN guy who was repeatedelly arrested for scandals, heavy drinking, possible some drugs, to continue to stay in that country. As far as I know, every government on this planet would expell pronto such creatures, if caught in the act of any wrongdoing.

Now, please tell me if such a story can be true, if this thing might exist in France - an authority - I presume that a court of law - to forbid a foreign citizen to leave France for 3 years and counting, while he is out free in Paris, working on the black market - as he always did in the past 15 years.

Merci beaucoup.

[Anton Redman II]

He may have had probation, he may have a court order which forbids him to leave France until a debt or fine is paid.

In any event he can take a bus or train out of France, in the direction of Romania any time he chooses.

The French are faster to expel than say the UK but are in theory bound by the same legislation and even if they do expel short of branding him on the forehead he can be back next week.

 

[Iceni]

Isn't nearly every year like 1995?

A Romainian not begging for/demanding money ? Nah, can't be true.

John

[noiklosa]

The issue was not Romania or any other country, I was only trying to point out clearly that the guy is a citizen of EU, and that's why I stated that he was Romanian. He may have been a Brit, for what it counts, it would be all the same.

.

Then again, he says that the French police or whatever forbids him to exit France for 3 years now. This thing you said - about an unpaid debt cannot be the reason - then again, think about it this way: somebody from Britain, for instance, goes to Romania, something goes wrong and the guy finds himself owing to a Romanian guy an ammount of money, and therefore THE ROMANIAN GOVT forbids the Englishman to leave and go back to his citinzeship country. There is no way on Earth that the government of a country  would interfere into private, civil matters, by highjacking foreign citizens who are not arrested for serious offences.

It could be possible that this guy I am talking about got into trouble with the law. But then again - he is free, this thing - not being allowed to leave France - lasts for years, any court of law would have already dealt with the matter, after 3 years. 

My question is simple: do you guys ever heard about such a thing like an EU state, call it X, to forbid a citizen from a different EU country, call it country Y, to leave X and go back to his native Y at his free will ? Remember, this citizen is free, he is not under custody, and the only thing that may be odd about him is that he had a scandal with a female citizen of X. This is by no means enough grounds to force someone to stay in your country for 3 years. 

I say this is insane, lol. Then again, anyone from France who has some beef about it ?

[Pickles]

[quote user="noiklosa"]On the other hand, he says that the French Police forbids him to leave France - 3 years ago, he got into a fight with his ex-girlfriend, the woman filed a complaint and therefore he was forced into staying in France... for years and years.

Now, this whole thing sounds silly to me, but I need your input, perhaps France's legislation is out of this world. [/quote]

Perhaps the story is out of this world? We are only getting a half or a quarter of a story here. Is this story reported somewhere other than "There's this guy down the pub who says ..."?

If a person has been found guilty of a crime, in France it is quite possible for the punishment to include a period of contrôle judiciaire. In the case of Bertrand Cantat, who killed Marie Trintignant, he was obliged not to leave French territory and to keep the authorities informed as to his location. He has just (today) finished this period of contrôle judiciaire, which also included a ban on publishing any form of work connected with the crime or making any public statements about the crime.

Regards

Pickles

[noiklosa]

Come on, you say that this Cantat guy was found guilty of murder and punished only with this "control judiciaire" ? I think that he spent some time in jail and eventually got this "control". although it seems out of logic to me: so you have a foreign criminal in your country and you insist on keeping him inside your country, when the safer way is to expell him. Hm, if I found a bad dog on my property, I would certainly insist on having him sent away :-)

To come back to our horses - this story was told to a good friend of mine by this guy I am telling you about, who lives in France, I would not care much if this good friend of mine did not buy it entirely. I mean, come on, the French fovernment can't be that stupid as to forbid a foreigner to leave France. A foreigner who - as far as I know - did nothing more than argue (with a bit of phisical contact) with his girlfriend. This cannot be grounds for keeping someone for years into a foreign country.

 

[Pickles]

[quote user="noiklosa"]Come on, you say that this Cantat guy was found guilty of murder and punished only with this "control judiciaire" ?

[/quote]

No, I did not. I said that it is quite possible for the punishment to include a period of contrôle judiciaire. The punishment may also include other elements, eg jail time. The other elements were not relevant to the issue.

[quote user="noiklosa"]I think that he spent some time in jail [/quote]

Yes.

[quote user="noiklosa"]To come back to our horses - this story was told to a good friend of mine by this guy I am telling you about, who lives in France, I would not care much if this good friend of mine did not buy it entirely. I mean, come on, the French fovernment can't be that stupid as to forbid a foreigner to leave France. A foreigner who - as far as I know - did nothing more than argue (with a bit of phisical contact) with his girlfriend. This cannot be grounds for keeping someone for years into a foreign country.[/quote]

The story as you have related it sounds at best incomplete. You don't appear to know whether he was found guilty of a crime ("a bit of physical contact" would be considered assault at the very least). If he were, then a period of contrôle judiciaire could explain the circumstances. However in the absence of more complete information, what do you expect of us? The original person may be lying through his teeth and may have misled your friend.

Regards

Pickles

[noiklosa]

Yes, it was an assault - but I don't think that it was any jail time inolved. What I find absolutelly incredibile is this: so basically, here I am, coming from Africa, America, God knows where from, I am assaulting a woman in Paris, and these guys, instead of putting me away in a jail and the second I did my time, to send me packed back home, they do what ? Keep me in France, so I can go and who knows, assault another French citizen. I cannot believe that France can forcefully keep a foreign citizen, unless he or she is serving time IN A JAIL. And beside that, I think that the best proof that this "judiciary control" is useless was proven by this guys' trip to Romania. He went thru customs without any problems at all. I mean, do these French guys ever heard about computers and sharing data between different police depts ?

Thanks for your insights, Pickles.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Iceni"]Isn't nearly every year like 1995? [/quote]

I'm like thinking that you like beat me to it, like [:)]

[noiklosa]

Beside hiring a French  lawyer in order to sort this thing out, any suggestions as about other forums - even French writen, does not matter - where I could get am answer ?

Is there any database with the ones who are under "judicial control" ?

[Tony F Dordogne]

I know from personal experience that a person awaiting to go for trial for an offence can be held in France and forbidden to leave the country, even tho the person is an EU citizen, it can be a condition of not being held in prison that you don't leave the country.

Noiklosa, why are you trying to sort this out, I don't understand your last post.  It happens, people can be held in this country, illegally here or not pending the outcome of a trial.

[dragonrouge]

I have been away for some time and now think I will go away again. Why please are we interested in this issue? What relevance does it have be you Spanish French Italian or Welsh.

Ok the UK but if you are charged with an offence (and its my bag not being charged but being in the law) prosecution can ask that you hand in your passport. The OP should understand that until you appear before your peer group at least in the UK you are not guilty but still bail conditions can mean curfew at night reporting to the Police every day or whatever. And why not. If you want to challenge it then go ahead and a Judge in Chambers of the Criminal Division of the Court of Appeal will hear your application.

It is so-called justice why are we becoming involved in a story that seems to me to be half-baked and why does as Tony suggests the OP need to become involved? If he feels so aggrieved then hand in pocket big cheque book and Avocat. Then many thousands of euros later he will be a wiser person. This is not the site for free legal advice and like everything in this life there is a cost.

[dragonrouge]

Sorry I forgot arrest does not mean guilty. Fact despite one's background the secret of good law is to put aside previous incidents for this time the guy could well be not guilty.

Thus arrest and guilty are two differing issues and thus if the OP wishes to have a lecture in legal matters a donation to a charity of my choice would be welcome.

[noiklosa]

First and foremost, thanks fo all comments re this issue.

Secondly, looks like I need to explain a few things - perhaps my desire to avoid pointing out personal matters on this story kind of clouded a bit the discussion.

1. A very good friend of mine knows this guy who got the interdiction to leave France. Now, after hearing the story, I thought that it was total bullshit, for reasons I will explain now:

a) the alledged problem this Romanian guy had in France was an assault on a French woman he was living with. From what I was told, there was no hospitalization, nothing but an argument, followed by a complaint to the Police. This incident happened 3 YEARS ago.

b) after this incident, this Romanian guy got an interdiction to leave France. I find this plausible, but what I find totally out of logic is the legth of this interdiction. Three years and counting ?! Not that what he did was some peanuts, but there was plenty of time for a trial, for jail time, for anything. Three years of forced domicile arrest whitout a trial is incredibile.

This makes me think that the reason why this Romanian guy got busted was more than a simple assault. I mean, you don't limit for years the right of a citizen to go back to his country, based on a complaint submitted by someone who says that he had an argument with you. This could be true in a Kafka novel, but by all means, we are talking about France, not Botswana or Thailand.

On the other hand, I find incredible that France did not chose to expel the guy, instead of keeping him in France, close to the alledged victim. This sounds like a guy comes to my home, hits me, Police comes and instead of sending him as far as possible from me - the victim - they forbid this guy to leave my home until the trial is ended. ?!!!!!

2. I also find it hard to believe that France or any other democratic country can keep a foreign person, without trial, for such a long period of time. I have never ever heard about such things until now. OK, if a foreigner breaks the law, you have the right to arrest him for a reasonable period of time, eventually - pending on the case - bring him to trial and make him spend time in jail.

I also find it impossible that France may have a juducial system wher a person charged with assualt and CONVINCTED for this crime gets no time in jail, but... "the interdiction to leave France".

What I tried to find out outhere was simple: is this story credible ? Is it possible that someone who commited in France an assault to get this kind of punishment ?

[Boiling a frog]

http://www.lexinter.net/PROCPEN/controle_judiciaire.htm

 

There is no time limit and

One cannot expel an EU citizen unless they present a serious security threat to the country.

[Sunday Driver]

"A very good friend of mine knows this guy who got the interdiction to leave France. Now, after hearing the story, I thought that it was total ***"

You heard a story second hand and we're now hearing it third hand. 

"This makes me think that the reason why this Romanian guy got busted was more than a simple assault."

Possibly, but without the full background, everything here is just pointless speculation.

 

 

 

[woolybanana]

Surely pointlessness is the point, Sunday?

[Frederick]

The very good friend ...is the woman who was in the relationship with the Romanian.....he is a nasty bit of work and is still hanging about ...could be a problem for us  I ...would like to see him kicked out of France .....?   

[Will]

As this obviously worries you, perhaps you should take up the matter on his behalf with the Romanian embassy or a local consulate? Probably a better chance of actual help than you will find on an anglo-french forum.

http://www.embassiesabroad.com/embassies-of/Romania#1101