Jump to content

Devis format


Dennisj
 Share

Recommended Posts

Advice please,

I have received an estimate from an English French registered builder, he has sent it by e-mail in english and asks that I translate it into French, sign it and return it by e-mail.

I believe I read somewhere that a: only original signed documents are the legal format and that b: the devis should be written in French and signed by both parties. In this instance the French version would be signed by only me!

Is what the builder suggesting the legaly accepted format? Should add that I am still living in the UK and have had previous experience of an english builder verbally quoting for works, then mailing to say it was complete and would i send payment. on that occassion I sent the money and the work had not been done, and never was.

Gratefull for all advice, many thanks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is for your builder to supply you with a devis that complies with the current french regulations ... I would also ask to see his insurance to make sure it covers the works envisaged (at that he has it).  There are some good British builders out here but also a lot of sharks ... shame Watchdog isn't international!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The wicked side of me thinks you have the upper hand here - am I the only one?

To my mind he isn't confident in his French and thus it seems to me that you could add all sorts of things to the devis and if he signed it he might be none the wiser!  It's certainly extremely odd but I can't see that he can cheat you here - quite the reverse in fact.

Joking apart, I don't see why you should do the work for him - if he operates a business in France, why can't he run it according to French rules and practices, and in the local lingo?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi! You are already running into language problems by using the French word 'devis' in the heading of your post and then talking about an 'estimate' and 'a builder verablly quoting for work'.  An estimate or quotation is just that - an approximate calculation of what certain work might cost. A French 'devis' is a binding contract between the parties. More importantly, you need to be clear which legal jurisdiction would prevail in the event of a dispute - French or English. If French, which would seem likely in this case but depends on the builder's precise insurance, then all documentation would need to be in French and a 'devis' normally used. As others have noted, you need to ensure that your proposed builder is fully qualified and insured for work in France.

In general, where translations of French documents (such as property purchase contracts) are provided in English there is a clause at the end stating that 'the English translation is provided as a guide only and that in the event of a dispute the original French document wil be the document of record'.

Hope this helps a bit.   P-D de R.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Dennisj"]Advice please,

 Should add that I am still living in the UK and have had previous experience of an english builder verbally quoting for works, then mailing to say it was complete and would i send payment. on that occassion I sent the money and the work had not been done, and never was.

Gratefull for all advice, many thanks. 
[/quote]

 

If I was you, and I lived full time in England I would only have work done in France by people who I know and trust. Or is it possible for someone who lives nearby to oversee the job. Surely your past experience should tell you this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Dennisj"]Advice please,

I have received an estimate from an English French registered builder, he has sent it by e-mail in english and asks that I translate it into French, sign it and return it by e-mail.

I believe I read somewhere that a: only original signed documents are the legal format and that b: the devis should be written in French and signed by both parties. In this instance the French version would be signed by only me!

Is what the builder suggesting the legaly accepted format? Should add that I am still living in the UK and have had previous experience of an english builder verbally quoting for works, then mailing to say it was complete and would i send payment. on that occassion I sent the money and the work had not been done, and never was.

Gratefull for all advice, many thanks. 
[/quote]

Dennis, it would be useful if you put your French location on your name as people with experience of your area may be able to give you some detailed information about your potential builder in private messages.

Personally, if he's sent you an email/fax and asked you to have it translated into French I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole.  The fact that he's registered in France means nothing, nor does it necessarily give you any protection if things go wrong, I've seen too many people caught like this in the past 6 years to have any faith in registration being a mark of a good worked or company be they French or Brit owned.

And if you do want to go with this guy, speak to at least 3 of his previous clients, if he's good he shouldn't have any problem in providing you with their details nor would they have a problem in speaking to you.  One couple I know spoke to a very satisfied English woman locally who gave the registered builder a glowing reference and it turned out that not only was his business bankrupt, the reference was his partner.

Belt and braces throughout I'm afraid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no legal requirement for a devis to be written in French, nor the final invoice for that matter.

Many decent, honest French-registered British tradesmen write their quotes in English for English-speaking clients.

In dealings with the French tax authorities, for the artisan on his accounts, or for owners on, say, the calculation of plus-value when a second home is sold there may be a problem which can be resolved with a translation of the invoices into French. Ditto if an insurance claim arises.

Acceptance of a devis has traditionally required the signature of both parties, but in practice these days email acceptance works.

Re P-D de R's comment, if a French-registered builder is working on a property in France French law will apply. There's no opting-out of that.

Others have posted regarding the usual precautions to be taken when you engage anyone to do work, & special care is needed if no-one is on hand to check out what's being done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Dennisj"]I have received an estimate from an English French registered builder, he has sent it by e-mail in english and asks that I translate it into French... [/quote]

Then he's likely to be lazy, unprofessional - as he risks (as Coops suggests) you putting all sorts of things into the devis that he didn't and I too wouldn't touch him with the proverbial. However, in the event of a dispute, any disparity between original English-language devis and the more inventive translation would come to light. [:D]

Remember that if you are again asked to pay for work before you have seen it, in this glorious technological world you can ask for photos detailing the work either by email or hard copies sent snail mail. No photos, no payment. But you would be wise to set that up as a payment condition before signing a devis if you think you can't inspect the work personally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Anton Redman II"]Interesting debate about appropriate language from another place.

http://www.proz.com/forum/french/85607-langue_utilisée_pour_les_factures.html

Worth reading to the end.[/quote]

I take it that you mean by 'reading to the end' to follow up the ref to art 289 of the Code Générale des Impots?

Which states at (IV) that, as I said, in case of a check by the tax authorities one may be asked to provide a translation into French of a bill written in a language other than French. In other words, it's OK to write a bill in English.

Also note that at (V)art289 and art 289bis, bills issued by 'electronic means' such as email are perfectly acceptable so long as key details are included (artisan & SIRET, TVA ref if applicable, client details etc). A paper copy must howver be supplied to the taxman if so requested.

Anyone running a business in France already knows that paper keeps the taxman happy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As an English/french registered artisan, fully insured and bi-lingual, we do all devis and factures in English for English speakers and in French for French speakers - for a contract to be binding it has to be written in a langauge both parties understand, thats why many Notaires insist on a translator at the signing of a house transaction.  However, if there is a problem then all documents are obliged to be translated in to French.  French law is binding here, not English.

As to your builder - I think he is being a little bit lazy and does not bode well for the future.

We also do work for absent owners and our invoices are payable on completion but several try and wriggle out as they are not coming over for a while - do you think EDF would stand for that excuse?  We now have a clause to say that digital photos will be emailed and they must be accepted as completion of the work.

Interesting stuff you read through Polly, must have been tough going - I am going to bookmark it though for future reference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ladoix - we do likewise; devis and factures in French for French speakers, and usually in English for English speakers (but with main works now added in French in parentheses for the benefit of our accountant).

Polly, everything is sent on-line to our clients if they use the internet, but hard copies are sent to the accountant.

Dennis, I'm amazed that your builder has the cheek to ask you to do the translation!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't believe there's any rule to the effect that a contract must be written

in any particular language.  But common sense suggests that both

parties should sign the same document, since both are agreeing to the

same set of rights and obligations.

I don't see how a document signed by only one party could possibly be a binding contract, and I don't think I would trust a builder who wanted to work on that basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many thanks all.

I ended up doing the translation and added complete to my satisfaction,  (previously told him I will not be back in France until May  and that he can do the work as and when he wishes, not finishing until the day we get there if it suites him) I mailed it back asking him to sign also. Have not heard from him since.......his silence says a lot.

So again thank you.

I am in area 16 not far from Champagne Mouton if there are any local competant carpenters reading this.

regards,

Dennis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="allanb"]I don't see how a document signed by only one party could possibly be a binding contract, and I don't think I would trust a builder who wanted to work on that basis.[/quote]

I'm not sure about this but... if an artisan composes a devis, gives it to a client and and the client signifies acceptance by signing it, a binding contract exists even if the devis has not been signed (as far as the client knows) by the artisan. Obviously the artisan is in agreement with the devis (if there are no significant changes) because he wrote it. As he has the signed devis, he could choose to sign it any time if considered expedient.

Therefore, Dennis, the lack of response may mean nothing more than (further?) laziness on the part of your carpenter; if you do get additional quotes from other carpenters and sign a devis with one of them, you may find you are still committed to the original carpenter for payment. Which would be a bad thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Catalpa"]I'm not sure about this but... if an artisan composes a devis, gives it to a client and and the client signifies acceptance by signing it, a binding contract exists even if the devis has not been signed (as far as the client knows) by the artisan.

[/quote]

I'm not completely sure either.  However, the purpose of a signature is to show that the document is authentic, i.e. that it really was agreed to by the contracting party.  If I am dealing with a contractor, I want to have a document that shows clearly what he has undertaken to do, and that means something with his signature on it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
In this case the Artisan did not write the final devis in that I amended it. The only signed copy would contain my amendment, how would I know he had agreed with my amendment if it did not have his signature and how could I enforce it if he did not show explicit agreement, I.E, his signature?

Dennis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...