milkeybar kid Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 We made a Will in the UK for distribution of investments NOT properties) whilst still resident in UK.We are now resident in France but wish to make a new Will in the UK for those investments.Question... by making a new will for UK stuff now we are resident in France does it have any bad implications where u are resident when making UK Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 If you die whilst being ordinarily resident in France, then the whole of your worldwide estate comes under French law with respect to inheritance law and (probably more importantly) inheritance tax. What are you trying to achieve?RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote user="milkeybar kid"]We made a Will in the UK for distribution of investments NOT properties) whilst still resident in UK.We are now resident in France but wish to make a new Will in the UK for those investments.Question... by making a new will for UK stuff now we are resident in France does it have any bad implications where u are resident when making UK Will.[/quote]Hi, It's only worth making a UK will to cover UK real estate, which passes under UK IHT law . You should make french arrangements* for all your other worldwide assets which pass under french IHT law and taxes. Any income from your investments is also taxable in France and should be declared here. You should review your investments to see if they are still tax efficient in France, and if possible adapt them , if necessary. It's a pity that, like many others, you didn't research this aspect before becoming french resident. Most UK tax-free investments (PEPs, ISAs etc.) are not tax-free in France , and any dividends and capital gains are quite heavily taxed. The most tax-efficient way to invest in France is via french Life Assurance plans. * I say arrangements and not wills , as there are other ways to deal with your succession in France , notably by change of marriage regime or by "donation entre époux"--you should find a good english -fluent notaire and discuss your options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkeybar kid Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thank you. But yes, YES!! we did research and was originally Tontiene then changed to (See..Inheritance ....What if post!!!!) régime de communauté universelle. Its just that I am coming across more and more people that are making a Will in UK and specifically making a Will in France as well, would I presume that its for moveable objects if they are sharing between children. But back to original question are you saying that the UK Will is not worth the paper its written on. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote user="milkeybar kid"]Thank you. But yes, YES!! we did research and was originally Tontiene then changed to (See..Inheritance ....What if post!!!!) régime de communauté universelle. Its just that I am coming across more and more people that are making a Will in UK and specifically making a Will in France as well, would I presume that its for moveable objects if they are sharing between children. But back to original question are you saying that the UK Will is not worth the paper its written on. Thanks again.[/quote]Hi, If you die french resident then a UK will is only good for any UK real estate . If it is your only will and properly made under UK law ; it will be accepted as legal in France , but only those provisions which do not conflict with french inheritance law will be implemented- there would also be legal and translation costs for your heirs. It is not a bad idea to have an english will , as you cannot guarantee that you will die french resident,(and when you possibly return to the UK you may be incapable of making a sensible will), but take great care to have all french-taxable assets excluded from the UK will, and all UK assets excluded from your french will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Just because others are it does not make it necessary for you, it depends entirely each persons circumstances.In essence for a first marriage couple with no grasping ex's or progeny from earlier alliances lurking in the wings then there seems to be little or no point to a French will.I suggest you have a read here:http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/inheritance/wills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 That site isn't actually correct though, AnOther - is it? I might be having memory problems but I'm sure I remember posting a link on here yonks ago from a notaire's site which detailed a change in law that said that a spouse was now a reserved inheritor, whether children were in existence from a first or second marriage or not - and that link clearly says the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Not hard to find, since Quillan copied it from the thread I posted it on and put it on a sticky which is just above this thread (it currently being the last updated thread in this section):http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/641727/ShowPost.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Also get both wills done professionally by someone conversant in both sets of law. This is because an English will normally starts with a statement revoking all previous wills and codicils - matching wills in the two countries need to acknowledge each other's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkeybar kid Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Debra.....So, in a nutshell the revision is it saying that if you have NOT opted for a regime (I think no regime means you default to Napoleonic, correct me if I am wrong) then the spouse inherits all, as does if under a French regime. Freddy that is a great tip, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't know your circumstances and so can't advise - I was just pointing out that the link given was out of date in that it didn't mention the change in law that made a spouse a reserved inheritor along with children.I think you have already been given the correct response to your question in that you need a will for each country that fits in with the laws for each country (ie allowing for reserved inheritors on worldwide assets where French law says you have to) and to make sure that each will mentions the other will. ie a clause saying that this will refers to my assets in this country and excludes assets in the other country which are covered by the other will. I don't know if you might have to go so far as to quote the date the other will was written and where it was stored but someone on here will know (who has already responded). What you are trying to avoid is the assets getting tied up in one country because the legal bodies in that country want to apply their laws to the assets in the other country or take a long time to sort it out, arguing over jurisdiction and which laws apply where. With one will it may take a long time to get probate in both countries and I think this is why people advise you have two wills rather than one will which fits in with the law of both countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkeybar kid Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Quote-Re: Debra.....So, in a nutshell the revision is it saying that if you have NOT opted for a regime (I think no regime means you default to Napoleonic, correct me if I am wrong) then the spouse inherits all, as does if under a French regime.Yes, I have understood. I was just trying to get the full picture as by nature I am curious and find the whole subject fascinating. So, does anyone know if you have neither regime it is therefore called Napoleonic . Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 [quote user="milkeybar kid"]Quote-Re: Debra.....So, in a nutshell the revision is it saying that if you have NOT opted for a regime (I think no regime means you default to Napoleonic, correct me if I am wrong) then the spouse inherits all, as does if under a French regime.Yes, I have understood. I was just trying to get the full picture as by nature I am curious and find the whole subject fascinating. So, does anyone know if you have neither regime it is therefore called Napoleonic . Thanks again[/quote]Hi, Couple of points. If you do not change to a french regime , your UK marriage will be considered as under the french regime of "separation des biens", which means you each own fully any asset in your sole names , and 50/50 (not in "joint tenancy" as in UK) any joint name assets. Unless you make a notarised declaration to stay on this-or change to another regime , after 10 years you will be considered as under the french regime "legal" of "communauté reduite aux acquets ", which briefly means that all assets acquired after marriage are held 50/50. If you have children your spouse cannot inherit your part of the estate fully, but you can make various arrangements, by will or otherwise, to delay their inheriting till after yous spouse's death . If the estate includes real estate , in general, the children will have some control over the disposal of that real estate-unless your whole family make a "pacte familliale" , the details of which you can get from a notaire. On Debra's post, yes you should indicate the date of the wills which you are excluding . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikep Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Freddy's right - if your (later) English will does not acknowledge and accept the existence of your (earlier) French will, then lawyers will reasonably assume that it invalidates it. It might not actually change any of the provisions, but it could cost a lot in fees to establish that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkeybar kid Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Great info Parsnips , thank you and Mikep.I am sure other people are finding this of interest looking at the amount of hits so ... here goes last question I promise but cant help being curious. In this example. No regime, wife has one child previous marriage, husband has one child previous marriage, they also have one child that was produced between them. They have NOT changed to a French regime so in what parts would the estate be divided if the wife popped her clogs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote user="milkeybar kid"]Great info Parsnips , thank you and Mikep.I am sure other people are finding this of interest looking at the amount of hits so ... here goes last question I promise but cant help being curious. In this example. No regime, wife has one child previous marriage, husband has one child previous marriage, they also have one child that was produced between them. They have NOT changed to a French regime so in what parts would the estate be divided if the wife popped her clogs![/quote]Hi, Husband would (in the absence of a will) inherit 1/4 of the wife's estate in full title , her child would receive the rest in full title. This can be greatly improved (for the husband) , by will or by "donation entre époux". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 A hypothetical question:If you are married and state that you have no children, either together or from previous marriages, how can a Notaire know that the survivour is not the sole inheritor and act accordingly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote user="AnOther"]A hypothetical question:If you are married and state that you have no children, either together or from previous marriages, how can a Notaire know that the survivour is not the sole inheritor and act accordingly ?[/quote]Hi, The notaire is supposed to investigate the deceased's family background to try to find all possible heirs, but obviously this would be difficult with immigrants who do not have a full "livret de famille" or other dossier in France. However , he will have copies of birth and marriage certificates, and could possibly cross -check with Somerset House for offspring- it all depends on how diligent he is. There is always a possibility the children get wind of the death and suddenly decide they need a share of the estate. There is a severe criminal penalty for attempting to conceal the existence of an heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 généalogistes stop at an AG5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkeybar kid Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Errrr!!! I googled AG5 and its an alkaline magnesium watch battery!! I am slow at the best of times but is this a reference to .... the Notaire would not have the time or inclination to go looking to find all relatives that might benefit from the estate. Perhaps I have missed the plot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote user="milkeybar kid"]Errrr!!! I googled AG5 and its an alkaline magnesium watch battery!! I am slow at the best of times but is this a reference to .... the Notaire would not have the time or inclination to go looking to find all relatives that might benefit from the estate. Perhaps I have missed the plot![/quote]Arbre généalogique ascendant 5 générations (AG5)[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDee Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Does anyone have any typical costs re making a will in France? I know it will depend on complexity, but the norm might be making sure a surviving spouse is protected from avaricious children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote user="BobDee"]Does anyone have any typical costs re making a will in France? I know it will depend on complexity, but the norm might be making sure a surviving spouse is protected from avaricious children.[/quote]Hi, The cheapest form of will is one you write yourself, and you can usually get a notaire to draft one for you to copy for between about 60 and 100€. You will of course need one each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charly Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Just for interest and for anyone searching...Somerset House hasn't stored public records for the longest of times : it became an Arts and Cultural space with a skating rink in the winter. Wills are now stored in the Registry in High Holborn and Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates in Merseyside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkeybar kid Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Final visit tomorrow with the will in English, hand written, no problems there except with one word "predeceased". I have stated that.... I Milkeybar kid wish that my wishes (blah blah blah) be acted upon only if both Mr MBK and little MBK have predeceased me in death. Notaire checked it over by email but is concerned by the word predeceased, as we only want the inheritor to have all if we are all dead.Please can u advise where I am going wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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