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tribunal d'instance


charnizay
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Hello  -  Can anyone shed light on what a letter might mean that I received from "le conciliator de justice" who is acting on behalf of my neighbours who have complained that I have put some pieces of metal against the wall of my shed, on my own land and stored securely and temporarily.

I do not know how to proceed. I also would like to know if it is possible to ask formnally for an unbiased and capable translator as my French does not extend to something as seemingly serious as this.

Any comments will be gratefully received, thanks in advance,

Regards Charnizay

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A translator 'assermenté' will do that for you, and is acceptable in a court of law

This is a directory

http://annuaire-traducteur-assermente.fr/

A conciliateur de justaice is there to see if there is any point in the case going any further, not there to reach a decision.

If you want any more help you could post the main part of the letter, leaving out any personal bits, and someone here may be able to explain more..

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Have you got legal cover with your house insurance that would cover some help with this?

Personally I think I would be doing a few things, contacting this conciliator and asking to see them and going to my Mairie and explaining the situation and asking if I was not breaking any rules, which if as you say this is temporary, I cannot see you having done.

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Hello and thank you for reply and advice. I have made contact with the conciliator (today, I only arrived here yesterday and found the letter) and asked for English correspondence and also tried to explain what the storage is about. I will have to wait and see what he comes back with.

 I do have legal cover on my house insurance, but I feel that the complaint is so paltry that I have not yet considered using it, but..........

My local Mairie knows all about this concern as we were visited by the Mairie last December who was happy to accept our explanation as to the temporary nature of the storage.

This is the 5th time that our neighbours have complained against us - not always for the same thing, every time we are here in France it seems as if they dream up something else, they do not like us.

The pieces of iron in question are stored securely on our own land - this is very strange.

Thanks anyway.

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As idun says one of your insurances my have help with legal cover. They certainly usually cover civil responsibility.

A conciliateur de justice is there to stop trivial things getting to court, and offer a pre-trial advice to both parties about whether there may be a case, so this may stop with him.

I gave the address of translators in case you have to find one, but I would ask about whether you can have one provided free first. Don't be afraid to contact the concilateur on the address you have on your letter, and explain that you need help understanding.

He is not a Policeman or a judge; in fact they are often semi-retired professional people a bit like magistrates in the UK, doing this for public service.

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I had to read your post again to be sure that I hadnt made a mistake, the stuff is against your shed wall, not his?

Is he perhaps concerned that your garden from his viewpoint is starting to look like Steptoes yard?

In which case I would talk to him and reassure him. certainly seems extreme to go to the tribunale d'instance.

There are some gardens around here that are visible from the footpaths/roads etc that really really are a disgrace and harbour vermin, after 7 years I had to talk to the owners of the tennis court behind me (the comite d'enterprise of Airbus) to get it cleared, I wish I had done so earlier.

A friend had been getting stressed during the same period about her neighbours back garden, the view from her terrace looked over the roofs of his outbuildings which are piled up with scrap metal mainly old bikes because every other square inch of his massive property is already knee deep in toot, she wanted to plant conifers to screen the view but would have lost all her sunlight, I went and spoke with the guy while they were away for the weekend, he was quite amenable and when he saw for his-self the view from their terrace he understood, he cleared the roofs and expressed regret that they hadnt felt able to ask him themselves.

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Hello Chancer  -  The iron pieces are stored against my wall but they are open to view to my neighbour when he walks past them, they cannot be seen from his house, the pieces in question are flat against the wall, secure and in a straight line. They comprise of some old metal shutters and stairs, we want to keep them for future use as we are restoring our house we hope in a sympathetic manner, you must believe me when I say that in no way can they possibly resemble a scrap metal yard.[:)]. There will not ever be any more metal put there but it may be some time before we clear the area.

We have had a lot of complaints made against us by this particular neighbour, he doesn't appear to like us for the following reasons:-

1) We obtained planning permission to build a terrace to the rear of our property which he did not like and he made various complaints although he did not make an official objection??

2) We sent him a lettre recommande last summer asking him to vacate our piece of land, which he had falsely claimed and planted up, and to remove his plants by December which enraged him greatly, although he did remove his plants.

3) He has made a false claim to the piece of land which we are using to store the metal pieces, we asked him to show proof of his ownership but he seems unable or unwilling to do this, the plan cadastral shows our ownership clearly.

4) Despite talking to him and having meetings at the Mairie we still endure the complaining and I suspect that it is on the Maire's advice that he has contacted this tribunal. I have very poor French so going to meetings without translating help is of no use. I simply cannot sit in a corner, as it were, not being able to understand what is being said, I have basic French but fail to understand the details and I am slow.

5) I have written to the conciliator asking for help in English and also tried to explain my point of view.

You have been lucky to have solved your problems concerning tennis courts etc. I wish you more luck should any more problems occur.

Thank you for taking the trouble to post on my problem, I hope my post is not too boring.

Regards Charnizay

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I realise that you say that this land is yours, is it? Just because it is on the plan cadastre does not alway mean that it is yours. If there is a dispute, surely you need a geometre to put some bornes in place to show the exactly boundaries.

 

What did you notaire say about this land? although notaires, I have personally found, are often not that interested in what is on the paperwork.

This may all be more complicated than you believe. Sounds like you need to get a translator, as I would not think that the concilliator should write to you in english?

 

 

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Hello Idun  -  I am sure that my neighbour now has accepted that the piece of land does belong to us. We asked by a letter recommande for him to vacate the land, take up his plants, and leave it clear for us, we allowed him 6 months to do this so that he could reap the tomatoes etc., at this point there did not appear to be a problem, we even had a meeting with them and agreed a limit line so that he could build a fence to separate his land from ours.

I cannot think why he has taken this extreme action of involving a court and I feel that to employ a geometre expert and a translator would further punish me in the worst possible way, i.e. in my pocket. I have tried to contact their notaire and also the succesor to my notaire but cannot get them to answer me let alone give me information, I am convinced that they are not interested.

I guess that my neighbours simply do not like the way my nose grows and that I will just have to allow what will happen to happen, sadly.

I do not expect that the conciliator will write to me in English but as translations are always offered for official documentation in England then I felt that I could at least ask for help.

Regards Charnizay

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I have never known France offer free translations to any official documents.

 

I fear that the bust up over the small piece of land has possibly set the neighbour against you and that consequentially your assessment that he is just out to hit you in the pocket, could indeed be right.

 

I have come across full family feuds that have been started by things equally trivial.

 

Please do not misunderstand, if the land was yours it was your right to insist that he vacated (and anyone else would have done the same) - but such is small town France.  Batton down the hatches and be prepared for some unpleasant bills.

 

Sorry that I cannot be more positive

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Punish you, well, you aren't being punished. 

In France and we all have to deal with the french authorities in french, so you have the choice as to how much you learn. If you don't learn, then you putting yourself at a great disadvantage, maybe you are actually punishing yourself. Personally, for all I speak french, if I was confronted with something legal I would consult someone to explain it to me properly.

And punishment about a geometre, well, no, in the french campagne, it is common to have such disputes and employ a geometre.

 

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Alternatively you could take pleasure from the fact that it is probably costing him money at the moment, do nothing and only respond to LAR letters, he is probably pi55ing in the wind. No point probably in even replying to the mediator if it is going to cost you money for translators, its a shame as he is undoubtedly the best person to resolve this or if he cant at least he would re-assure you of your rights

If you get a convocation, and its a very big IF? then it will be by LAR, then will be the time to get translation help which you probably would be entitled to.

Unless you have misinterpreted the letters I cant see this ending up at the tribunal, if in the meantime you are anxious to know exactly what his claim is then you could edit out the personal parts, name address etc and PM it to me or someone else who you feel more comfortable with for a translation, not word for word but a good enough explanation of what is going on. 

In any case good luck, I see from your previous thread that you had foreseen something of this nature.

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Many thanks to everyone for replies to my posts concerning a dispute about the storage of iron pieces.

I attempted to write in French to the conciliateur, got a reply from him

and have agreed to meet on a one to one basis. I have also found a

translator for this meeting.

It appears that there is no actual land dispute presently but we are invited to this meeting to

be persuaded into being good neighbours. I guess this will take the form

of the conciliateur asking on behalf of my neighbours for us to remove

the iron because they find it unattractive.

I would like to say that I have found the forum to be very useful and at times comforting, if that is the right word.

Thanks to all - regards Charnizay
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Well that is OK.

 

If this is as you have said, then I have to say that I have never heard of anything so petty. Fancy going that far.

 

Are you going to take photos to take with you to the meeting?

 

Personally I'd be keeping a bit of a diary of everything they do that is not neighbourly, including the speeding. From your posts it sounds like they are not always 'good' neighbours.

 

 

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What I would do for what its worth, unsolicited advice!

I would go for the experience in any case, i would listen to the conciliator and tell him that you regard yourself as a good neighbour and a moderate person. You are happy to move  the objects if they cause a problem to your neighbour but are really surprised that he felt the need to involve the conciliator, a simple request à l'amiable would have sufficed.

Many others would have taken the involvement of the conciliator as provocation or to faire chiér and as a consequence they would have refused to comply, I am sure the conciliator will confirm that there is no problem with your storage, he should be gratefull that you have not taken it that way but you have your limits and it will not be the case if he again wastes the time of the conciliator and yourself without prior discussion.

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To both Idun and Chancer

I have made a "dossier" with photos and I am going to try and state my case that my neighbours have been quite un-neighbourly but I have had enough, I will remove the iron after the meeting which I am sure will be interesting.

My next move is to see an immoblier, I know the market is slow but I'm outta here :)

Thanks again Charnizay

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Hi,

It does sound as if your neighbour has used the land for many years for growing his own veg. As a new owner(?) of the land, when you asked him to clear it do you know if he used the land for several years before and was it more than seven years - he might have thought he had therefore 'permament' use of the land, if over the time he thought it was his to use as he wants.

Good luck though, rule 1 to 100 here is 'be nice to the Maire'![;-)]

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[:D] Ah Keni, that made me smile. 'be nice the Maire'. My last maire is the scum of the earth........ I'm sure he has equally nice things to say about me, we have been enemies for the last 25 years, long before he was made maire. In fact he and his wife were my first proper enemies in France. And since we left he has upset most of the village, he'd only upset some of it before I left. I do hope he is kicked out with a landslide defeat next year.

 

I saw 5 Maires in our village. The last one, is the one mentioned above, three were sleazy and I couldn't have been 'nice' to them if I had been paid. And one was a wonderful man and I was very very sorry when he retired.

 

Being 'nice' just because they are 'the maire' is not something I would ever suggest anyone do.

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It sounds as if this is more the sort of thing that would normally be sorted out by the Médiateur if your commune had one rather  than a Conciliateur de Justice

Compare the two:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9diateur_%28m%C3%A9tier%29

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F1736.xhtml

I know both the ones for my quartier quite well (I heve had dinner with the conciliateur)

I suppose it comes down to the disadvantages of rural life..

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To Keni  -  HI :) My neighbours have only been in their house for 4/5 years and are away for long periods in Nepal/South America et al. We have had our house for 9 years now, there was no established use of this land other than by ourselves and other visitors who used it. Our Maire is a very nice man and runs a good ship.

Thanks for your wishes, I would not wish this sort of thing on anyone.

Regards Charnizay

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