Your contract with the estate agents

[mint]

I thought I'd start a new thread specifically to do with the contractual terms between me and my estate agents.  This might also be of help and interest to those who are in the process of selling or who might wish to sell in the future.  I am also hoping that people who have recently sold will come in with their exprience.

So, I am trying to cover all the bases here so please forgive me if you think my questions have self-evident answers or are nonsensical.

And here's a bit of background to the thread.  Friends on here will know that I am selling our house in the Charente Maritime and, to that end, I have an advert with leboncoin and non exclusive contracts with 4 agents.  Now all the agents contacted me from my advert so I took that to mean that they think they have a good chance of selling the house.

I have a meeting this weekend with some potential buyers (through leboncoin and the parents have viewed on their behalf and taken many photos and additional info).  They have a mortgage agreed with a local bank and both have obtained jobs in Bordeaux. I have reason to think that we might agree everything at the meeting.

So, just a few questions and call me ultra cautious if you like (I don't mind!)[geek]

Just reading from one of the contracts, it says that the mandat starts at the date of signing and is "durée irrévocable de trois mois".  That surely cannot mean that I can't sell the property myself before the 3 months is up without incurring fees?[:-))]

If I were to agree a sum that is below what I told the agents I would accept, does that mean that the agents can still come with a buyer who can pay the agreed sale price and claim their commission?

Don't get me wrong; of course, I'd like the asking price but OTOH, once I'd agreed a sale, I'd rather stick with that one on the basis that a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush and also I am getting rather tired of dealing with agents, potential buyers, answering emails, fielding telephone calls, agreeing rdvs etc etc.  It's all just soooo tiring....

When I write those letters (par lettre recommandée) cancelling the mandats (even if they are sent before the "irrecovable" period has expired) would that be the end of my obligations as regards agents?

I just want to be certain that I can sell the house myself before the minimum period of expiry of the mandats, perhaps not reaching the net vendeur price agreed with the agents and finalement not be chased for fees

BTW, I've played fair with all the agents, I told them upfront that I would be marketing it ourselves, that other agents were involved and I gave them all the same net vendeur price.

If anyone can spot any pitfalls that I should be aware of, PLEASE point them out.

 

 

[NormanH]

It seems to me that there are two separate issues here.

The first is the fact that any sale is between you and the buyer and nobody else can make you choose someone you don't want. An agent is only that and you could quite easily come to an agreement with these people this weekend, go and  see a Notaire and sign a Sous seing privé as soon as you wish.

The second issue is whether the agent can claim fees.  That depends on the details of the contract you signed with them. I take it you haven't signed an 'exclusivité', but we would need to know more to answer this second point.

[Chancer]

Non exclusive contract so you should be OK.

The agents contacted you from your own advert so again thats in your favour although doesnt make them sound very enterprising.

I would think that if you had not sold the property then you could not refuse a viewing via them, perhaps you might even still be obliged to do so but they cant force you to accept an offer especially if the house is already sold.

I would just advise them that the property is under offer and to not waste their time or yours in continuing to market it.

[mint]

Thank you, Norman and Chance, for your contributions.

Yes, Norman, the wording is "Mandat de vente sans exclusivité en cas de démarchage".

I like to do all the research beforehand and not have any nasty surprises.

[andyh4]

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but up until the signing of the CdV, if an agent brings along a client who agrees the full price (assuming the offer is less), there is an obligation to accept it.

[mint]

Andy, I don't think there is an obligation to accept it but, if you do refuse it, you could still be liable for the fees.  Nobody's ever tested that one, AFAIK, but that is how it was explained to me years ago (although that was in the UK rather than in France)

[PaulT]

Yes, my understanding from when we were looking to buy was that if someone offered the full asking price then the seller was obligated to sell - presume if the seller refused then the agent would be entitled to the fee anyway.

[NormanH]

I think the seller might  only  be obliged to pay the  commission for the lost sale. I can think of no circumstance which would prevent a seller taking the property off the market for example.

[mint]

Thanks again, Norman.  I now feel quite confident going into the meeting tomorrow and hope that the sale goes ahead.  I am now reassured that I can go ahead and sell it without worrying about the agents.

I have had another request to visit so if it isn't going to be my lucky day tomorrow, I can line up 2 other visits straightaway.

The reason I am not charging ahead now is that these people are coming by plane en express from Lille tomorrow and I promised them before they bought their return tickets that I would not have any viewings until after tomorrow.

[Cendrillon]

Bonne chance Sweets, hope it all goes well.[:)]

[woolybanana]

It had better go well, Sweets, I have been holding my breath for weeks and it is getting a bit tough, and the crossed fingers have long since dropped off!

[mint]

Cendrillon and Wools, what a comfort it is that your potes are rooting for you![:D]

One hopes but it's OK, if not these people, then some others.

What's that formule that the yanks trot out?

SWSWWN...some will, some won't, who's next?[:D]

Thank you all the same.

Je vais vous tenir au courant!

 

[Cendrillon]

merci et bonne chance.

[Mikep]

Congratulations on finding a potential buyer, I hope it goes through smoothly.

We sold (privately) a couple of years ago, and I'm sure I remember a clause in the standard Mandat (non-exclusive), that if the agents received an offer from a buyer at the full asking price, they could agree a Compromis de Vente on our behalf without recourse to us. At the time, this was very unlikely; I queried it but it stayed in the Mandat.

Accordingly, as soon as the private buyer came over the horizon, I took great care to inform them (in writing with proof of delivery) that we had found the buyer without their help. I also wrote formally as soon as we had agreed an offer to inform them, and also to ask them to take the property off the market. They all complied with this request immediately, and there was no subsequent hassle.

If you have a similar clause, it might be better to explain the situation to the buyer, and to accept the offer "subject to no offer at the full price being made." This should be sufficiently unlikely that the buyer is not put off.

I remember a case on the forum a few years ago where the agents came along after a private sale with another buyer (probably fictional) supposedly prepared to pay the full price, and accordingly demanding their full fee. Tread carefully!

[mint]

Mikep, yours is just the sort of post I was hoping for!  Someone who's done it and understands the process.

As the price is already er....most realistic, I think I will tell the people tomorrow that it would be best if they could offer the full asking price because, that way, I could genuinely tell all the agents, no more offers as my price has been fully met.

Should the sale not go ahead, there's nothing to prevent me from starting from scratch and going back to the beginning of looking for buyers, is there?

I shall bear in mind what you have said about writing and emphasising that I have found the buyers on my own, through my advert and without recourse to their services.

I have also noted the next step about asking them to take the property off the market.

Thank you so much for the really relevant advice.

Yes, I, too, remember that case on the Forum that you mention concerning the fictional buyer.  That's why I think it best if the potential folk can put in the full price in writing (even if I have to agree to give them a couple of grand back, informally[;-)]  And yes, I can do sneaky...)

And please keep the congratulations till all is signed and sealed?[:D]

merci encore!

[Chancer]

I would like to be a fly on the wall when the notaire witnesses (but doesnt!) the money under the table going in the wrong direction [:D]

I can just imagine the expression of incomprehension.

[mint]

Do you know, Chance, I know the notaire we are using and it's funny you should mention this.

He does obligingly leave the room on some pretext or other and comes back after several minutes, making a joke about money "sous la table".

At that point, you are expected to laugh uproariously, shake your head and deny all wrong-doing.

[Rabbie]

Good luck! Hope the sale goes through[:)]

[mint]

Thank you, Rabs.  On verra............

You know what it is with these chateaux, they are not that easy to sell.

Still, I have a wee dram in the cupboard for tomorrow evening.  Could be good for celebrating OR drowning my disappointment?

[Mikep]

I'm thinking of adopting "sour70" as my nom de clavier. Would there be any copyright issues?

Basically, if you treat agencies fairly, they seem to do the same. I don't think they would bother to initiate any legal action unless you really manage to irritate them.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Thank you, Rabs.  On verra............

You know what it is with these chateaux, they are not that easy to sell.

Still, I have a wee dram in the cupboard for tomorrow evening.  Could be good for celebrating OR drowning my disappointment?

[/quote]Hope everything went well today. I have had a small glass of Drambuie to wish you luck.

[woolybanana]

Only a small glass? Mean b ugger!

[Chrissie]

Hopefully by now the OP has signed a deal.  I have a slightly different question: 

After several months without viewings, I have been contacted by an agent who had a couple who might be interested in viewing the house if the price was likely to come down quite a bit.  I said "Why not?", expressed my reasonableness re price, and it was left that they would see if the couple wanted to view and would get back to me. About 24 hours later, a different agent contacted me about a lady who might be interested, and indicated a price rather higher than the other agent.  We have provisionally agreed a viewing for later this week, and he will confirm.  Now for the problem.  It was my OH who suggested that, as it is rather unlikely the housing market here is about to explode, they might be the same buyers, and the more I think about it, the more likely this seems.  The higher price indication came from an agent who I know to be more flexible on his fees.  Am I obliged in any way to one agent over the other?  If the first agent contacts me again to fix a viewing should I advise that it might be the same people?  Is there any risk that I could become liable for two sets of fees?.....

Chrissie (81)

 

[mint]

As I understand it, Chrissie, if the buyers are the same couple, then you would pay the agent that they "use".

In any case, I presume that you would accept the higher offer if it's the same couple, or indeed another couple, all other things being equal.  In other words if they don't need a mortgage, have no house to sell, etc.

If I were you, I'd say nothing about your suspicion that it's the same people?  Why should you?  After all, if nobody's mentioned any names, how are you supposed to "guess" whether they are the same people or not?

Just go on with the viewing and sell if you wish, whoever the people are and whichever agent they choose.

BTW, have you established a net vendeur value which is the same for all the agents that you are signed up with?  I have an agent who has tried to persuade me to lower the net vendeur but I have not agreed, merely saying that it's too early (just over 2 months) to be talking about lowering the price and that we will see what offers come in first. 

As for me (because I know I have friends interested in the outcome, I'd like to say something), I have as yet nothing to report.  The young people are due to fly back to Lille tomorrow and they know that I have a visit on Wednesday and another on Saturday.

The parents were enthusiastic, the young couple were enthusiastic, the 3 siblings of the female of the couple were enthusiastic but none of that might add up to an actual offer! 

Early days for me and, hopefully for all those wanting to sell, the spring will flush out all the potential housebuyers![:D]

[Mikep]

I suggest that you make careful note of any potential buyers introduced to you, by whom and when - ideally confirmed in writing to the agency (say, as a "thank you" note after the visit). Then, if a second agency tries to introduce the same people, say at once that you are already in contact.

I can't see that you would lose out, no buyer is going to make a higher offer for the same property through a second agent. That way you could save yourself a lot of hassle - and you have some paperwork to support your case.

Incidentally, our agents seemed to put much more effort in to persuading me to drop the price, than they did into finding prospective buyers.