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Artisan Problem


motard
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In June last year we arranged for a local artisan to do some work on our maison secondaire, insulating our roof internally and covering the ceiling in plasterboard. It was agreed that the work would be done over the winter before we returned in April of this year, although this was not written into the devis. We had signed the devis and paid a 30% deposit in June and the cheque was duly cashed.

In March we received an e-mail saying he had been unable to begin work due to employee problems and a backlog of work but he would begin at the end of March and the work would take approximately two weeks.

We arrived in April to find no work had been started and so we sent him a text inviting him to a meeting to discuss the situation over a coffee. At the end of May we had still not heard from him so we visited our local mairie to ask what we should do. We were advised by the maire's assistant to write a strong letter insisting on definate timings and if he was not able to carry out the work to reimburse our deposit - and to send this by registered post.

We sent the letter as soon as we returned to the UK, as we realised that any French  registered post would be confirmed to our French address.Unfortunately, the British tracking system only tells us that the letter was delivered to 'La Poste' and not who signed for the letter. So far we have not received a reply!

We are due to return to France in September for another couple of months and the question is what to do next? I have read the other posts on similar situations but unfortunately links posted by helpful people do not appear to work!

Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Cher (18) and Northants.

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Phone him on his mobile. Most artisans mean well but have too much work and tend to give priority to the clients that hassle them every day. If you're away most of the time and rarely hassle him, he'll not see you as a priority and you'll stay at the back of the queue. One email or text in a blue moon is very easy to ignore when there are other people who phone you every few days.

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Thanks for that. I guess we were being too laid back about this and not assertive enough! This guy was recommended by a French builder who has done a lot of really good work for us and accompanied him to the house when he came to measure up prior to issuing the devis. He has a key and is quite embarrassed that the work has not been done. He has said he will phone him and I will continue to text and indeed ring him myself if I don't get an answer, however if all this proves to no avail what is the next step - La Chambre des Metiers/ Chambre de Commerce? He is registered and has a siret number.

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+1 to Eurotrash's advice.  Spot on.  Forget texts, e-mails, letters - phone the bugger up, just like you would in the UK.  Until you talk to him, you've no idea why the job's not been done - blimey, as we used to say in the trade, "His mother might have died ..."

Sure, you'll have to be on his case.  But you're still a long way from any Chambre des Métiers stuff ... [:)]

 

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[quote user="EuroTrash"]Phone him on his mobile. Most artisans mean well but have too much work and tend to give priority to the clients that hassle them every day. If you're away most of the time and rarely hassle him, he'll not see you as a priority and you'll stay at the back of the queue. One email or text in a blue moon is very easy to ignore when there are other people who phone you every few days.[/quote]

ET - I'm not, well, not entirely, trying to trip you up, but how does this post about "most artisans" having "too much work" square with this post of yours:

[quote user="EuroTrash"]But bearing in mind that unemployment in most of France is far higher

than in most of the UK, and that it's far harder for newly arrived

foreigners to get a job than French jobseekers, I think he's in cloud

cuckoo land if he thinks he stands more of a chance finding work in

France than he would in the UK. [/quote]

After all, insulating a roof internally and putting up plasterboard on a ceiling isn't exactly rocket science - I've even done it myself recently, despite having worked in an office job for thirty-five years. Isn't it the kind of thing that a newly arrived foreigner could do as easily as someone from France?

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[quote user="Araucaria"][quote user="EuroTrash"]Phone him on his mobile. Most artisans mean well but have too much work and tend to give priority to the clients that hassle them every day. If you're away most of the time and rarely hassle him, he'll not see you as a priority and you'll stay at the back of the queue. One email or text in a blue moon is very easy to ignore when there are other people who phone you every few days.[/quote]

ET - I'm not, well, not entirely, trying to trip you up, but how does this post about "most artisans" having "too much work" square with this post of yours:

[quote user="EuroTrash"]But bearing in mind that unemployment in most of France is far higher

than in most of the UK, and that it's far harder for newly arrived

foreigners to get a job than French jobseekers, I think he's in cloud

cuckoo land if he thinks he stands more of a chance finding work in

France than he would in the UK. [/quote]

After all, insulating a roof internally and putting up plasterboard on a ceiling isn't exactly rocket science - I've even done it myself recently, despite having worked in an office job for thirty-five years. Isn't it the kind of thing that a newly arrived foreigner could do as easily as someone from France?

[/quote]

Simple. Artisans are skilled workers (allegedly) and France has a very protectionist approach to this. For starters, they need to be registered, and in order to be so they have to provide evidence of qualifications (or equivalence, if they are coming from abroad) or, if no qualifications, then evidence of x years of experience. Unless, of course, they try the Auto-entrepreneur route, but my sketchy understanding of this is that registered artisans were a bit peed off about being undercut by auto entreprensurs and the goalposts on being able to do trades work under the shcheme have moved.

In addition, anyone undertaking this type of work needs the required decennial insurance to protect themselves and their clients. It's not cheap, but without it you're not able to do the work (allegedly)

Last, but by no means least, plumbers, electricians, carpenters etc., are people with skills. OK. they're skills which can be learned or acquired to a certain degree by anyone, but in France you aren't going to get a job as one of the above unless you have trained or have qualifications or both, so the fact that trades are in demand doesn't mean that the unemployed will be welcomed with open arms to fill any old vacancy, if they haven't got the training to do the job. France is NOT a country where the enthusiastic or competent amateur can get a job in a trade. So there's no correlation between overworked artisans and general unemployment, any more than there is in any other country. You don't just bung people into a vacancy whether or not they can do the job, in order to finesse the unemployment figures!

Last, and by no means least, the newly arrived foreigner with no actual track record of sticking up plasterboard or cladding out a loft will have a hard job convincing a prospective client that he's the man for the job. In the halcyon days of mass emigration by Brits to France, many people saw the chance to set up as trades when they moved, despite the lack of any formal qualifications or experience other than a bit of enthusiastic DIY. France is probably still littered with regretful Brits who fell into the trap of getting work done by such people. ( There are references littered across this and other forums to the famous "Brittany Ferries" qualification route, where you got on at Dover as a retired teacher/fireman/policeman or whatever, and arrived in France as  a plumber.

Oh, and not forgetting that the chances of being taken on by an existing tradesman are remote, given the draconian French employment laws and the cost to an employer of engaging an employee. The vast majority simply can't afford to take on staff.

Apart from that, great idea.

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[quote user="Araucaria"]After all, insulating a roof internally and putting up plasterboard on a ceiling isn't exactly rocket science - I've even done it myself recently, despite having worked in an office job for thirty-five years. Isn't it the kind of thing that a newly arrived foreigner could do as easily as someone from France?

[/quote]

Erm... a newly arrived foreigner with no previous experience in building work? Or someone who is already doing that work in their own country?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here by juxtaposing those two extracts from different posts (I suspect I'm missing some encounter you've had with ET elsewhere) but while you've no doubt done a good job on your own ceiling, if that is the only experience you have doing that work, would you now consider yourself sufficiently experienced to register yourself as an work(wo)man doing interior finishings, buy yourself a décennal and start and maintain a successful business?

Unemployment in France is very high - most especially in rural areas - with short term contracts and SMIC the norm in many businesses, big and small. Often, companies will give work to a French person even if a non-French national is better qualified - their experience isn't French and (imo) there's an element of looking after French people first. Even if someone does get an interview, their French needs to be good to excellent - many non-French people lack the language capability to even understand health and safety (yes, really!) instruction so they can't be employed even if their skills fit.

Self-employment isn't necessarily the answer (unless your outgoings are low or you have a second income) and many small businesses simply aren't viable, clobbered by the cost of doing business here. You do have to wait for good, reliable artisans to do your work but they can't afford to employ extra people because it costs them too much.

But I'm sure you've lived in France for a long time, Araucaria, so you know all this. [8-)]

Motard, rather than wait another 2? 3? months, I'd shamelessly use your embarassed builder (you did recommend him to us <sigh>...) to start putting pressure on now... needs must and he may get a better result than you can. Then, if it hasn't been sorted by September, go and see your tardy builder, get him to agree to a finish date (start dates are pointless - one day on site and then he doesn't have to turn up for another 6 months) and then put it in writing and send it to him - recommandée avec avis. Then keep communicating, all by registered mail, reminding him of his commitment.

Or ask him to return your deposit... with interest. [6] By September he'll have had your money for 15 months? That's long enough.

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Good grief Araucaria.

For a start most artisans are self employed, so being able to do plasterboarding hasn't got a lot to do with how easy or hard it is to land a job, ie an employment contract, when you're competing with French jobseekers.

Trying to not offend anyone here, but being a good bricoleur is way different from having the ability to set up and run a sustainable business. Yes, there are a lot of general handymen that can do small jobs, but they're not artisans. If a newly arrived foreigner, with qualifications and experience that the Chambre des Métiers will accept, has the confidence to shell out a few thousand euro on the public liability and decennale insurances that he needs before he can legally start doing structural work for clients, all well and good - but you wouldn't invest that kind of money as an auto entrepreneur (if you have any sense), and running a SARL for instance is not something you would find easy to get your head round, fresh off the boat.

I can only say what I see around me. When I wanted my gutter replacing, I had to wait until my roofer had finished reroofing the church in the next village and dealt with a few other jobs that he'd accepted before mine. Last time I had a plumbing emergency I phone the plumber around lunchtime, he promised faithfully to come the same day, and he arrived at nearly 10 o'clock at night having had another emergency call out to do after his day's work before he came to me, he looked shattered, I felt sorry for him.

Likewise, I see well qualified Brits applying for literally scores of jobs and not even getting an interview.

I don't know the reason for the apparent dichotomy, but I assume it's what I said above. Finding a job is hard. Making a go of being self employed is also hard. Being a good bricoleur is not so hard but it isn't a job nor a business.

EDIT - sorry YCCMBetty and Catalpa, I spent so long figuring out how to put it tactfully that I didn't see you'd both answered it better about an hour ago.
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Catalpa

yes, ET and I have clashed elsewhere - hence the post......

But I've lived in France for ten years, and I'm retired and I'm absolutely NOT looking for work, in fact I'd like to do much less myself, but my experience over that ten years with many artisans has been just like the OPs: they say they would like the work but they just don't turn up when they say they will. Or it's an endless process of calling and waiting around, then in the end the devis never comes. There have been some honorable exceptions, of course - I'd really recommend our (expensive but definitely French) plumber (PM me for details).

I think a few more British ex-pat builders, etc, competing on absolutely equal terms (I mean, in case it isn't obvious, not on the black and with properly comparable skills) with local artisans are exactly what is needed. And if they turn up when they say they will they will be much more likely to get the work - or they would be from me! It's called competition......

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Trouble is, they almost certainly (insert obvious caveats re language and marketing skills here) wouldn't get the work from the French. And there are too few Brits around in France to provide enough work.

My French plumber is incredibly cheap. Must be luck.

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[quote user="Araucaria"]I think a few more British ex-pat builders, etc, competing on absolutely equal terms (I mean, in case it isn't obvious, not on the black and with properly comparable skills) with local artisans are exactly what is needed. [/quote]

The Cantal is very different to Normandy. I doubt you've many British builders in that (very beautiful) area but here in Normandy we have (or had) lots. Some have done well, some have a very poor reputation, some have been bankrupted and lost everything they came over with or closed because they've concluded the financial return isn't enough for the effort expended. Lots have returned to the UK where it is easier to be self-employed, especially honestly. Here, you will still wait for a good workman, sometimes months. But if their list of customers is that long, they're good.

If an artisan wants a tax regime where all business-related  expenses are taken into account before a profit is declared, the 'simplest' tax regime to register under is micro réel.

Autoentrepreneur won't cut it because your contributions (cotisations sociales) are based on turnover. So if you buy plasterboard, plaster and other materials for clients, you'll be assessed to pay contributions on those materials. Bonkers? To a British person, yes. There is a way round it: you have to ask your customer to pay for the materials direct - or to give you the money separately so it doesn't go through your books. This is not professional or efficient. My rule of thumb has always been that if materials and expenses account for more than about 20-25% max of your turnover, autoentrepreneur is not the regime for you. If you are doing an IT type of job which is internet-based and your expenses are a ream of paper twice a year and a new pc occasionally, AE may be perfect.

If you go micro réel, you can declare expenses and materials against turnover to give profit on which your contributions and tax is based. However, under micro réel, you must employ an accountant for this. Most accountants' fees for this task start at 800 euros per year. Add into that the décennal and personal liability insurance and setting up as an artisan will cost you the best part of 3000 euros before you've earned a cent. Okay, you may be able to spread these costs in stage payments over your year but this is the base cost. There are cheaper décennals but the newbie artisan won't be able to access those for at least 3 years because s/he has no track record in France.

But that's not all. I don't think (but I may be wrong) that as micro réel, you can pay your cotisations on actual income in the first year. It used to be assumed that your first year cotisations would be 3000 euros (adjusted up or down in following years) so worst case, you would have 6000 euros costs to out pay regardless of actual income in the first year. Then you need to earn enough to live on. And doesn't take into account setting up costs such as vehicle, tools and equipment.

Then, as Betty says, comes the challenge of finding customers. The newbie artisan probably won't get French customers. Established artisans won't always get French customers - especially if their French is poor. French customers are ideal because they understand the cost of working in France and, more to the point, there are a lot of them! [:D]. Many British people don't value work they think they can do themselves. They may not want to do it themselves but as you, Araucaria, said yourself, plasterboarding a ceiling isn't rocket science. You're right... but doing it quickly, with a minimum of wastage and to a high and lasting standard comes from experience.

This is hijacking Motard's thread so (finally) I'll stop but I do get impatient with the "but can't you just..." approach to working within the system in France. No, you can't is too often the answer.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Well, I said I would report any action on this one:- I'm pleased to say that my friendly builder sent me an e-mail to say that the insulation man had collected the keys and told him he was going to begin work. I then got a very apologetic text from the man himself, saying that he had not kept an eye on his work schedule and had a backlog and thanking me for my patience and understanding etc! He said he was delivering materials on Friday and would start on Monday (I think he forgot it was Bastille Day!).

To cut a long story short, he has kept his word and my neighbours have checked and confirmed he has started - today.

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