French Legal Process

[Gardian]

My French neighbour and I were summoned to attend the Tribunal d'Instance in Uzes this morning. This forms part of a long-running dispute over an adjoining (to both of our properties) piece of land which the owner wants to build on. We don't want him to. You'll be pleased to know that I don't intend to re-play the history of all this - it's too long and boring a story. However, the legal process today was ................. well, different.

The summons, served by the local huissier, stated that the plaintiff wanted the Tribunal to order an impartial survey to be carried out in order to, once and for all, delineate the boundaries. (This would enable an accurate Permis de Construire to be applied for by him).

Michel and I turned up at 09.30 as instructed. 50 or so other people in the courtroom + a dozen or so avocats. In just over an hour, some 40 or so cases were dealt with by the President, a 35yo-ish woman, who wasn't in the mood to take prisoners! Most of the cases related to debts - mostly, nobody had turned up, order for payment made. The others mostly got adjourned.  One woman was heavily ticked off for something or other and had to be led away in tears.  All this in front of everybody present, with chattering amongst the avocats and 'public' going on all the time.

Finally us - last but one case. Up to the bench. Plaintiff hadn't turned up, nor his avocat. "OK, on hold", says the President. Michel protests - we've had enough of this, been going on for ages, etc, etc. "Alright, a choice, it goes on ice or (with you two now as the plaintiffs) I appoint an impatial surveyor to sort this out", says the President. We chose the latter.

At first, I thought that the whole business was shambolic. Late start, very public in what was for some, very personal matters, and seemingly rather indecisive.  Thinking about it more, I think that what I experienced was a series of straightforward financial judgements + 1st hearings of (potentially) more complex issues. It was probably more efficient than I gave it credit for at the time. Can't help thinking that our opponent should have been fined for not bothering to turn up, but no award seemed to have been made.

Interesting experience though.         

[PaulT]

Well, the public can attend British court hearings so the only difference being that all other cases are in the room at the same time - no doubt sometimes beneficial to know what mood the President is in before your case is heard [:)]

If anyone has done jury service in the UK, whilst fascinating, my experience was that productivity is not that great with early finishes and 'we may as well adjourn now for lunch before the next witness' and a nice long lunch break. Still, it is only ther taxpayer paying for this.

Sounds as though the French have a production line going.

Paul

[Chancer]

I am hoping to be in the tribunal d'instance soon but as the accused in my own long running dispute with A*A.

I just wish that they would get on with it instead of sending ever escalating threatening letters and the amount claimed rising disproportionately each time.

What has surprised me is just how naive/ignorant of their rights even my most intelligent French friends are, the very whisper of the word tribunal and they panic and tell me that I must pay,  (because A*A say so [:)]) the recent letters are cleverly written and every one I asked was convinced that A*A had already won a citation against me in my absence and that the huissiers would come within 48 hours to seize my assets.

Instead of going to the tribunal to enquire I went to the huissiers and they confirmed that for the moment at least it is nothing more than les menaces and they seriously doubt that A*A will in fact take it before the tribunal (I really hope that they do), they told me most French citizens will be obedient and pay up when threatened, the others are the ones that stick their head in the sand and do not turn up when convoked. which your experiece bears out.

It is a bit strange for the plaintiff to not turn up though!

[dragonrouge]

Paul as someone who has been in the law for some considerable time the problems in the system are in the main brought about by the Crown Prosecution Service and the Police. It may amaze you but the CPS normally charge high and then when we get in front of the judge attempt to do a deal especially when the evidence is rubbish. My advice always to clients is not to do a deal. If you are not guilty then stand up and fight but as many clients have told me I do not have to do the time.

Finally our system is based upon the Jury system and please believe me some strange decisions have come out as in Ken Dodd and where it was argued M'Lord my client has never trusted banks. He was found not guilty and the following day went to the tax office to pay his debts.

[Gardian]

JR ..........

Just from my mega-limited experience of Thursday, I'd venture the suggestion that you take the opportunity to sit in at one of the next Tribunal sessions where your case might be heard - if it comes to that.

Others may feel differently, but I wouldn't bother with an avocat - costly and ****.  Some prior exposure though, might just help you to have a feel for the style of your local Tribunal and for you to have your position well-marshalled.  I don't suppose that any Court, at any level, in any country, is much different, i.e. it hasn't got time to mess around, so (as I'm sure that you intend) make sure that you're concise and can quickly demonstrate that you have an answer to the 'charge'.  On Thursday, two or three cases where it was going to take some debate and study of papers, were set aside for re-examination when the initial pile had been dealt with.  All the best with it.

As for us, all this is just a sideshow. The bornage is largely irrelevent: what matters is whether Mr X comes back for a Permis de Construire at some later date and crucially, whether the Mairie approves it in the face of local opposition. 

 

[Chancer]

Very good advice Guardian, I will follow it.

So speaketh the man that did 0% research before moving to France [:D]

[Patf]

Can anyone answer a question on tribunal decisions/ sentencing?

In a local case a light aeroplane owner is accused of causing involuntarily injuries to passengers who he took for a flight while drunk and in a storm, and crashlanded. True - I know one of the victims. He was tried in the Tribunal d'Auch.

The procurer decided " un an de prison dont neuf mois avec sursis et mis en reprive. 500€ d'amende. Judgement mis en délibéré au 24 Septembre".

What does the last sentence mean? Is it just that the penalty needs to be confirmed by a higher court?

[gosub]

I think that basically, it's a 9 month suspended jail sentence.

[Cjlaws]

" un an de prison dont neuf mois avec sursis et mis en reprive. 500€ d'amende. " means one year's imprisonment, of which 9 months are suspended. €500 fine.

Sounds like that is the sentence requested by the procurer (public prosecutor).

"Judgement mis en délibéré au 24 Septembre." Means judgement is adjourned until 24 September.

[Patf]

Thanks to both. Perhaps this is to give the accused time to appeal.

[Clair]

It means the judge wants time to think (to deliberate) about it.

In practice, it's about having the time to do a transcript of the proceedings.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Gardian"]

As for us, all this is just a sideshow. The bornage is largely irrelevent: what matters is whether Mr X comes back for a Permis de Construire at some later date and crucially, whether the Mairie approves it in the face of local opposition. 

 [/quote]

I just thought that some of you might be interested in the state of play on this one.

The Tribunal president made an order at the beginning of July for a geometre expert to carry out a survey on the disputed bornage. Within a few days, our neighbours, us and the 'bad guy' got a bill for €500 each, to be paid before anything would happen. Ouch!  OK, paid up, but nothing (of course) happened in August. Geometre turns up with his bagman early Sept for a meeting of the 3 of us with him. Handover of all relevent paperwork.

Nothing happens till end-Nov, when we each get a bill for a further €300 each, the survey apparently representing more work than anticipated. Paid up again. Nothing heard till yesterday, when we receive a copy of his report.

He hadn't set foot on site, simply re-drawing a 15yo plan and writing 12 pages of this & that. Needless to say, he found against us on all counts and quite frankly, I could see his logic. I spent 2 hrs with my neighbour yesterday afternoon, who was spitting blood. Told him that our chances of getting an appeal result were minimal (in fact, I think that they're zero) and suggesting a course of action (which basically involves getting the Mairie 'onside' in preparation for opposition to a Permis de Construire application at some future date).

I'm not sure of the moral of the story: maybe it's that the legal process here in France is horrendously slow and quite expensive. Tread carefully.

 

[Tricia]

You must be furious too - all that money for nothing.

But you could still succeed in opposing the P de C. - good luck.

[Cendrillon]

Thanks for bringing us up to date, so far it has cost a lot of money for nothing much, do hope you are successful in oposing the planning application, if it eventually comes to that.

[Mikep]

Something to watch out for if you're wanting to object to an application for Permis de Construire: I tried to find details of a neighbour's application at our mairie, and was told that I wasn't entitled to see details until the permission was granted. Once it was granted, I would have a few weeks to register an objection.

The logic of this escaped me, but I got the impression it is a general principle.

[Gardian]

First of all, thanks to Tricia & Cendrillon for your supportive comments. As Cendrillon knows, this has been a long running saga, with legal escapades some time back. We've been here just 5yrs, but our neighbour has lived with this for more than 10yrs and he's pretty paranoid about it!

I refuse to get too wound up about it: life's too short. You can see the plot owner's point of view: he acquired the land some time back for FF20K - say £2k then. If he can sell it (with permission) to a developer for €30k - €40k, he's got a nice result. He would only get his money if & when they found a buyer & that buyer completed. All understandable.

From our point of view, it's a classic NIMBY and I make no apologies for that. We just have to keep a sense of proportion over the whole thing & stick to the key points - I'm having some difficulty in keeping Michel's feet on the ground over all this.

Mike - thanks for your post & I'm sure that you're right. However, with a new and quite 'approachable' Maire, she will probably feel able to tip us the wink when & if a PdC application comes in. There would be at least 7 opposing riverains, so you'd think that she would be sympathetic.

Hey ho, onwards & upwards etc. Saw Michel this afternoon - he regaled me with 47 reasons why he (we) should object to the geometre's findings. I was glad to get back here for a glass of CdR[:'(]  

[Cendrillon]

Bon courage Gardian and bonne chance with the new lady Maire. [:)]

P.S. Have you started that long, ongoing saga novel yet?

[Gardian]

Latest developments.

Both we and our neighbour cried "Foul" over the geometre expert's initial report: the gist of my protest was that this was a bornage dispute and how on earth could he arrive at an objective assessment without carrying out a survey of his own?  He grudgingly agreed.

He finally carried out his survey in mid-June and produced his report in mid-August. Needless to say, he didn't alter his stance and found against us. Michel incandescent, me resigned.  Awaiting the formality of a hearing at the Tribunal, but little expectation of success.

Then, joys of joys, a bill from the geometre for a further €616 each in the post today. That adds up to fees of €4250 between the 3 of us for his lethargic efforts. It has to be paid (I'm given to understand), but we can protest at the Tribunal hearing.  It has only been 16 months since an order was made for the geometre expert to carry out his work, during which time the cost has trebled.  Daylight robbery. 

Added to that, 6 of us on our little 'estate' sent a letter to the Maire asking if she would be kind enough to inform us when and if a demande for a permis de construire is submitted. Her reply?  No can do.  You can view any applications on the Mairie noticeboard and if it is granted, you have 2 months to object (as suggested on one of the posts above).  I'm beginning to understand why somebody put dead pigeons on her doorhandle the other week.

Good here, innit ?

[Cendrillon]

Fun and games as ever then Gardian![:(]

[Gardian]

Too true C.  Mind you, I'll be pushing up the daisies before this lark ever comes to resolution.

To anybody reading this - never, never moan about the British legal / administrative process. It's a Rolls Royce compared to the French 'Trabant'.

[5-element]

[quote user="Gardian"]

To anybody reading this - never, never moan about the British legal / administrative process. It's a Rolls Royce compared to the French 'Trabant'.

[/quote]

Too right, Gardian - I have had inklings of that myself. Blessed are those who will never have to put it to the test!

Mind you, there will always be those who say "you get out of life what you put in..."  then you might feel like throttling them...[:@]

[velcorin]

[quote user="Gardian"]

Too true C.  Mind you, I'll be pushing up the daisies before this lark ever comes to resolution.

To anybody reading this - never, never moan about the British legal / administrative process. It's a Rolls Royce compared to the French 'Trabant'.

[/quote]

Amen to that. Not sure it's even a Trabant. Ox cart? I write of millions to Bad Debt every year in France. Zilch in any other country in Europe.

In one case the judge was a 25 y/o bimbo, straight out of Judge School in Bordeaux. In the course of a 25 min case, never looked up from texting. Her decision? Adjournment. Full day for me, travel, overnight, plus Advocat. True cost to XYZ GmbH, about EUR 9000, and she never even deigned to stop texting.

[cooperlola]

A friend of mine in rehab' is having such a struggle at the moment sueing his employer following an accident de travail which has left him unable to work for the last two years with no end in sight.  Last week, once again, his employer failed to turn up to the tribunal and the case has been  adjourned, yet again, until January 2011.  Needless to say his morale is at its lowest ebb, just to compound the constant pain he is in. 

[Gardian]

[quote user="Gardian"]

Awaiting the formality of a hearing at the Tribunal, but little expectation of success.

[/quote]

Well, over three years have passed and here we go again.

My neighbour and I had a visit from the huissier yesterday and she served us with a summons to attend the Tribunal d'Instance in early January. We were presented with a 124 page tome stating the plaintiff's case for Court approval of the survey done in 2010 (but never approved) and damages of €2000 + costs.  You may take it that we are not amused!

We had sort-of assumed that since we had heard nothing, it could well have been because the plaintiff hadn't paid his share of the surveyor's bill (we knew that he was skint and in marriage difficulties) and that the whole business had lapsed.  Whether that was the case or not, it now appears that he is able to resurrect the whole thing more than three years later and claim damages from us for obstruction. Bear in mind that it was him who made the original request to the Court (in 2009), but never bothered to turn up.

The huissier strongly advised us to take legal advice and fortunately we have Protection Juridique - they are currently assessing the documents to decide whether to support our case (they will only do so if they feel that you have a good chance of success).

Our neighbour is beside himself and has charged off to talk to a lawyer. I've spent all day studying the 124 page document and am brain-dead!

More than ever, I'm of the opinion that we should seek a pre-Court agreement with the plaintiff over the bornage - we won't win in Court.  Then we can fight any application for a Permis de Construire through the Mairie and the DDE - there are sounds grounds for them kicking any application in to touch. My neighbour will almost certainly oppose my view though & I risk alienation.

Never a dull moment! 

 

    

[Cendrillon]

Oh my goodness, not what you need after all this time Gardian.

Once again bon courage