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We met with a notaire last week and asked to make a French will - but with UK law being applied (in order to disinherit evil stepchildren!) - and he said he couldn't write us one as no guidelines had been issued to notaires.

He said that the notaires understood the concept of the new rules from August, but that none of them had been given any specific information as to how to write this into a French testament ... therefore we would have to return later in the year.

Has anybody found a notaire who will insert this clause (apparently it has to be specific wording, but our notaire didn't know what wording, exactly).?

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[quote user="nectarine"]We met with a notaire last week and asked to make a French will - but with UK law being applied (in order to disinherit evil stepchildren!) - and he said he couldn't write us one as no guidelines had been issued to notaires.

He said that the notaires understood the concept of the new rules from August, but that none of them had been given any specific information as to how to write this into a French testament ... therefore we would have to return later in the year.

Has anybody found a notaire who will insert this clause (apparently it has to be specific wording, but our notaire didn't know what wording, exactly).?[/quote]

Hi,

       Mê.  Desautel  in  Aubeterre told me he has done a number of these wills , and indeed often encourages  people to opt when it is to their advantage.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Reading all this has left me totally confused. My partner and I bought our house 11 years ago.  Since we retired we spend most of the summer here - about 3 months, then the odd fortnight either side.

We have UK wills leaving everything to each other and then when both of us kicks the dust, my daughter & son gets whats left.

Question: How does the French IT affect us.  We both divorced - he has 3 children from his marriage who he's disowned.  We didn't get maried because we didn't feel the need.  Do we need to make a French Will - we have a French  bank account which is only used for the running costs of the house.

We have the house on the market at present - nothing happening.

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How did you buy the house? En tontine? If so then the survivor will inherit the house absolutely with nothing going to the children. It's important to check exactly how the purchase was registered by the notaire, and will be in your documents. Re. the bank account, if it's a joint account make sure it is titled M. ou Mme xxxxx and not M. ET Mme xxxxx. The former allows only one signature on the cheque and the latter insists on two ... hence if one of the couple dies then the survivor cannot use the account until bank and legal people have said so.
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If you are unmarried then inheritance tax at 60% on half the value of the house will be due, irrespective of how you purchased the property, unless you purchased using a specific property ownership company called a Societé Civile Immobiliere (SCI). If you purchased en tontine and you die first, your children will not inherit the house unless you make specific provisions in France, and they will still be liable for 60% tax on the full value as your partner is not their blood relation. If your partner dies first, there will be no problems and much less tax for your children to pay, as there are generous inheritance tax allowances for children.
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  • 7 months later...
Sailingsally, this answer is only offered from a position of experience, not from any legal expertise:

When my husband died, we were joint owners of our house, so I was deemed to already own 50%, then was accorded half of HIS half, giving me 75%.

He had four children, so the remaining 25% was divided into FIVE parts (one more than the number of children); thus leaving one 5% fragment that could have been left to any other person my husband might have wished. (In the event, that was either me or equally between the children - I can't remember.)

In the case you mention, if it is the case that the husband owns the property outright, I would imagine the widow would receive 50%, and the remaining 50% would be divided into FOUR, so the three children would each be due 12.5%, and maybe the widow would get that "spare" 12.5%.

But a notaire will tell you for sure. He/she will need to see the deeds though, to know how the property was originally purchased by the man; en tontine, as an SCI, etc.

Also whether or not the couple had made a "donation entre époux" is relevant; if so, the widow can continue to enjoy the property for her lifetime if she wishes, and the children only get their inheritance on her death I think; or if she sells the place.

Angela
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[quote user="Sailingsally"]Hi

I was just reading your above post and I ask if a French property is owned solely by the father and he dies - what percentage goes to the children and to the surviving wife?

There are three children.

Thanks[/quote]

Hi,

     It all depends on whether he has made a will or not.  Without a will it goes either all in life interest to the surviving spouse , with title to the children equally , or the spouse can take a 1/4 in full title with the rest to the children in full title .

      See here ;   

"Le règlement de la succession en présence du conjoint survivant

Lorsque le défunt laisse un conjoint et des enfants qui sont tous issus de cette union, alors le conjoint survivant a le choix de recueillir :

  • Tout en usufruit
  • Un quart en pleine propriété

S’il choisit l’usufruit, les enfants se partagent la nue-propriété à parts égales.

S’il choisit le quart en pleine propriété, les enfants se partagent les trois quarts restants à parts égales.

Lorsque le défunt laisse également des enfants d’un autre lit, alors le conjoint survivant n’a pas le choix et à vocation à recueillir un quart en pleine propriété."

These conditions can be varied with a suitable will or "donation entre époux" , particularly useful if there are stepchildren.

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Thank you so much for that information - the problem was that my father died 20 years ago - and now my mother has just died and without going to France to hunt for the deeds, we weren't sure what percentage would have to be added to mums estate - 1/4 each child sounds familar but wasn't sure if mum had a 50% share.

Do you by any chance know if we have to notify the French authorities that she has died in the uk (she was uk resident but just had her share in the French property - she also has a foreigners French bank account.

Many thanks
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What was done after your father's death, Sailingsally?

Did a notaire sort out the transfer of the property and the inheritance? In which case it must be set out on paper what proportion each of you would have.

Was the place always just a holiday home? If so, I would have thought they might have kept all the paperwork - including their copy of the house deeds - at home in the UK in their main house. I know I always have with mine.

About the bank account: I imagine your late mother had various payments going out automatically for electricity, water, local taxes etc. You will obviously have to tell the bank of her death, and produce a death certificate. And also include any balance from that account in the probate. But get the bank to tell you what you can do AT ONCE in order to keep the payments going - maybe by opening an account yourself? I assume they will close the account as soon as they learn the holder has died. I don't know what happens if the EDF etc don't get their normal payments, but I bet it's not good...

(Since reading your post, I have realised that my family would have exactly the same scenario in the event of my death, as the sole holder of the French account. I think I might make my daughter a joint holder with me.)

Angela

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The trouble is that it was 20 years ago when my father died and I can't remember what happened - I know we children got a share of the house but we take much notice at the time as we all saw it as my mothers - now she has gone, we have searched her uk house and no deeds were found so that's why I wondered if there was a 'norm' with the share - but I guess we will just have to go to France and search that house!

Many thanks for the reply.
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I don't think we have deeds as such, but we have our copy of the contract the notaire produced when we bought the house. That notaire has now retired, and you may well find the same - if so, maybe the new one has the paperwork. Or is it stored centrally somewhere?

You can go to the Mairie and ask who is the registered owner of any property. We did this when we wanted to ask about land adjoining ours.
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[quote user="Blodwyn"]I don't think we have deeds as such, but we have our copy of the contract the notaire produced when we bought the house. That notaire has now retired, and you may well find the same - if so, maybe the new one has the paperwork. Or is it stored centrally somewhere?

You can go to the Mairie and ask who is the registered owner of any property. We did this when we wanted to ask about land adjoining ours.[/quote]

Hi,

      Two other possibilities    www.notaires.fr   may be able to find the original notaire,  or the tax office may have something - they would have some kind of record of the purchase for taxes foncieres and habitation.

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I thought you could get  a copy using this form:

http://www.droitissimo.com/sites/default/files/formulaires/Cerfa_11187-02_N3236-SD-2011_demande_copie_extrait_document_apres_31_12_1955.pdf

the completed form should be sent to the  service de

publicité foncière
where the house is situated:

For the address see here:

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/deploiement/p1/fichedescriptive_1083/fichedescriptive_1083.pdf

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I know much of the paperwork for notaires is now automated, and there may well be a central register of property ownership etc.  If I can, I will ask my Rotarian colleague who is a notaire if there is a way to find this out ...

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