French Inheritance Rules

[CSV]

As I understand it, please correct me if wrong;

When one of the parents dies, the ownership of a house passes to the remaining parent 50% and the rest is divided between the children.

What happens if the survivor cannot remain in that house (perhaps far from services, cannot drive, etc) and wants to move, possibly to a smaller house?

I'm trying to understand the situation of a French neighbour, who now appears to be embroiled in some sort of legal process.

[idun]

Before the rules changed a few years ago, if one parent died and the children were major, then they could claim their almost half of the home.

Since then the remaining parent can stay in the property, but if they want to sell, then I believe that the children, if they want have to be paid off.  This has happened to a friend of ours last year, a second marriage and the children from the deceased first marriage wanted their part of the house when it was sold and got it. My friend expected to do this too. If the property had say been fit to rent out, then maybe she could have rented it out and benefited from that, but I think she needed her part of the property to finance her new appartment.

If I was in this situation I would go and see at least one notaire and ask what the situation was.

[CSV]

Thanks for that - most informative [:)]

[idun]

I reckon that these days one can make provision to protect one's interests legally, via a notaire who knows their stuff.

Our friend's husband was a cantankerous  xxxxx man and would not do anything to make sure that she was OK if he died first.

[crakpot]

As a resident in France from August 2015 you can opt for a British Will

I am assuming that is your nationality if so you can do as you please in your will, ie your spouse can inherit all your worldly chattels

[nomoss]

[quote user="crakpot"]As a resident in France from August 2015 you can opt for a British Will [/quote]

Since this is an EU regulation (no 650/2012), I wonder if it would still apply if the UK were to leave the EU?

[CSV]

[quote user="crakpot"]As a resident in France from August 2015 you can opt for a British Will

I am assuming that is your nationality if so you can do as you please in your will, ie your spouse can inherit all your worldly chattels[/quote]

As I said in the OP "I'm trying to understand the situation of a French neighbour, who now appears to be embroiled in some sort of legal process."

Thanks for all the replies - I have what I need [:)]

[crakpot]

CSV

I am trying to understand your wrath in having a go at me re" I'm trying to understand the situation of a French neighbour" is he/ she in France of any nationality or a French national neighbour in any part of the world

next time you ask a question I cannot be bothered

[CSV]

[quote user="crakpot"]CSV

I am trying to understand your wrath in having a go at me re" I'm trying to understand the situation of a French neighbour" is he/ she in France of any nationality or a French national neighbour in any part of the world

next time you ask a question I cannot be bothered[/quote]

Great. [:D]

[idun]

CSV, families and money what a cocktail for acrimony or war. I have heard some terrible tales in France, and I had hoped that this would be much better since the laws changed. Still, the politicans bring in laws and rarely see 'all' the prospective loopholes. And yet, these changes are still for the better, IMO.

[Val_2]

Just to say that if the couple had a will/donation/tontine in place before the death of the first spouse, the survivor has 50% automatically of the property plus half of the remaining 50% and the children share the other 25%. Don't forget that the surviving spouse is also an inheritor and is also 75% owner which is more than the children own so they cannot force a sale. If the spouse wishes to sell up, she/he must gain written permission from the other inheritors to do so and by all of them!

[Daft Doctor]

crakpot, it wouldn't matter if the UK left the EU, as the new law is applicable to France as part of the EU. It wouldn't matter whether you were a citizen of the UK, Brazil or wherever, you could still opt for the laws of your country of origin to apply, whether or not that country itself happened to be a member of the EU.

As previously said in another thread, any will made in France after August 16th 2012 can benefit from these new rules, as it would have been drawn up within the 3 year introduction period for the new EU law. There is no need to wait until August to act if you so desire.

[Mrs Trellis]

I thought the tontine meant the survivor owns the whole property? Surely they'd have 50% even without a tontine? (Unless there are more than 2 children I suppose.)

[Hereford]

Re: using a UK Will.  We were talking to a French Notaire (in a social situation so quite a short chat) a week or so ago. He says that the Notaire' do not think it will work as they cannot probate an "English" will and UK solicitors can't do it in France. He said the theory is fine but non-one can work out how to deal with it.

Be interesting to hear, eventually, of an actual case being dealt with all the way through.

[Clark Kent II]

[quote user="Mrs Trellis"]I thought the tontine meant the survivor owns the whole property? Surely they'd have 50% even without a tontine? (Unless there are more than 2 children I suppose.)[/quote]

You think correctly.

Effectively, determination of ownership happens on the death of one of the partners to the tontine (if there are two of them).

When my wife died, we had bought our French house en tontine, it became solely mine. My children - at no time - were involved or considered.

Tontine is effectively the same as joint tenancy in English Law. In order to retain ownership of your part of the property you buy as tenants in common.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Hereford"]Re: using a UK Will.  We were talking to a French Notaire (in a social situation so quite a short chat) a week or so ago. He says that the Notaire' do not think it will work as they cannot probate an "English" will and UK solicitors can't do it in France. He said the theory is fine but non-one can work out how to deal with it.

Be interesting to hear, eventually, of an actual case being dealt with all the way through.

[/quote]

Hi,

      As I understand it, under the new arrangement you do not make an "English Will" , you make a French will in which you opt for your estate to be dealt with using the provisions of English law (or Scottish or Irish as appropriate).   The Will would presumably  be administered by the notaire in the same way as if it was under French law .

   Probate for  assets sited in the UK can be accessed by anyone, by applying to the appropriate  probate office -see here;

https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/applying-for-a-grant-of-representation

    I have just assisted a surviving spouse obtain probate on a will , as described in the link - the oath was witnessed by a french notaire who is also a registered UK solicitor.   No doubt there are a number of notaires so qualified.

[Val_2]

Just so that people also understand. If you were married in the UK and have never changed to an alternative French contract of marriage you are considered as "Séparation des biens" by law and the rules of French inheritance apply. Hence why if you are a conjointe collaborateur with your spouse in the same business and pay cotisations you are equally liable for any of the business debts should your spouse die unless you have a protected business regime as SARLetc.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Val_2"]Just so that people also understand. If you were married in the UK and have never changed to an alternative French contract of marriage you are considered as "Séparation des biens" by law and the rules of French inheritance apply. Hence why if you are a conjointe collaborateur with your spouse in the same business and pay cotisations you are equally liable for any of the business debts should your spouse die unless you have a protected business regime as SARLetc.[/quote]

Hi,

       A note of caution, under the Hague Convention , if you have been resident in France for 10 years without taking any action , you are deemed to automatically fall under the french "legal" regime of "communauté reduite aux acquets", see this extract from the convention;

"Article 7

The law applicable under the Convention continues to apply so long as

the spouses have not designated a different applicable law and

notwithstanding any change of their nationality or habitual residence.

Nonetheless, if the spouses have neither designated the applicable law

nor concluded a marriage contract, the internal law of the State in

which they both have their habitual residence shall become applicable,

in place of the law previously applicable -

(1)  when that habitual residence is established in that State, if the

nationality of that State is their common nationality, or otherwise from

the moment they become nationals of that State, or

(2)  when, after the marriage, that habitual residence has endured for a period of not less than ten years, or

(3)  when that habitual residence is established, in cases when the

matrimonial property regime was subject to the law of the State of the

common nationality solely by virtue of sub-paragraph 3 of the second

paragraph of Article 4"

full text here;

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=87

The way to avoid this , if desired, is to make a notarised "declaration" for the continued application of UK marriage law , before the 10 years is up.

.

e convention;

[Mrs Trellis]

This sounds horribly complicated and I've never heard anyone mention it before. But it says 'If the nationality of that state...' so why does it apply to British people in France who have kept British nationality?

I though French inheritance rules applied to all residents, though from next August they can request to have their estate distributed according to a will made in the country they came from.

It makes me wish we'd done like so many Brits and lived in France under the radar. So much simpler!

[lindal1000]

Unfortunately Mrs Trellis, if you die you are no longer 'under the radar' and although it's unlikely to affect you it can make life very complicated for those left.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Mrs Trellis"]This sounds horribly complicated and I've never heard anyone mention it before. But it says 'If the nationality of that state...' so why does it apply to British people in France who have kept British nationality?

I though French inheritance rules applied to all residents, though from next August they can request to have their estate distributed according to a will made in the country they came from.

It makes me wish we'd done like so many Brits and lived in France under the radar. So much simpler![/quote]

Hi,

      The convention  deals only  with  marriage  property  regimes  ,  and  although  these  can  affect  inheritance  ,  this  convention  has  nothing  to  do  with  the coming  change  in  inheritance  law  which  allows  the  choice  of  inheritance  law.

      Because  UK  citizens  normally  marry  without  a  contract, they  fall  under  the  10 year rule, unless they  either  "declare"  to  keep  their  UK status  -which  in  France  is  regarded  as  the "Separation des Biens"  regime , in which  everything  in  sole  name  is  solely  owned  and  everything  in  joint  names  is  jointly  owned 50/50- or they  can  adopt  french law and choose  one  of  the  several  french  regimes according  to  what  they  think  best  suits  their circumstances.   

[Mrs Trellis]

There are people who live in France 90% or more of the year but are not in the system so their relatives would say they are just on holiday here.

[lindal1000]

That's okay if they don't own property or have a French bank account.. If they have property it gets a bit more complicated, particularly of there is a surviving spouse who is planning to stay on in the house, and if the person who died has children from a previous marriage.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Mrs Trellis"]There are people who live in France 90% or more of the year but are not in the system so their relatives would say they are just on holiday here.[/quote]

Hi,

     Instead of keeping your head down and hoping to remain invisible, why not visit a notaire , and take the easy and cheap measures to become legally resident.  If you are going to take advantage of the change in the succession laws , you will anyway need a notaire to advise on making a french will opting for UK law.

[Val_2]

From current personal experience if we had not had a French will and donation act, I would now be up sh*t creek but our UK marriage has been officially accepted as Séperation des biens which is also good. It is very very very dangerous to live in France as a couple without any sort of protective regime where jointly owned property is concerned when a simple PACS can offer protection if marriage is not an option. We heard this week that our local Boulanger has everything in his name only including the business and home and even though he and his wife are separated, the moment a divorce starts she gets absolutely nothing at all and you can see how worried she is by all the weight she has lost over it and she has also given the last 25years of her life to working as a slave to the business as well! Being under the radar here will only catch up with those folks one day either by inheritance issues or health or tax problems, not worth the risk.