Is it worth getting a Carte de Sejour in preparation for Brexit?

[Debra]

I was advised by the Europa people to get a CdS a couple of years ago when I separated from my then husband and it was a bit of a trawl getting healthcare and child benefit (only just got that sorted - two and a half years on). They said it would simplify things in future by establishing straight away that I had a right to be here and I would be treated the same as any French person. Of course, that wouldn't necessarily be the same if the UK left the EU.

Re French Nationality, if I thought I'd get it I'd go for it and I've advised my kids to. I advised them to before all this talk of the UK leaving the EU came up because as it stands now, if they leave the country for a couple of years they lose their right to stay here and start all over again.

[Debra]

Apparently the Connexion consulted some legal experts and the view was that having a CdS permenant, even though it's an EU one, might give us an acquired right in the event of a Brexit.

http://www.connexionfrance.com/news_articles.php?id=7867

[alittlebitfrench]

Stop worrying Debra. No one is going to kick you out.

[Cathar Tours]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Stop worrying Debra. No one is going to kick you out.[/quote]

 

Exactly, the UK will absolutely not leave the EU.

[NormanH]

In any case there are plenty of Non-EU citizens  resident in France.

As well as the many North Africans there are Americans, Canadians etc.

I can't imagine that  tightening up of the requirements on UK immigrants would lead to any stricter conditions than they have to abide by.

[YCCMB]

In any case, it's not going to be a kristallnacht! What's everyone so worried about? As if a few thousand Brits living in the rest of the EU will be anywhere near the top of anyone's list when it comes to the crunch. IF it comes to the crunch.

I can hardly see Hollande waking up on June 24th and making you lot his top priority!

[Cathar Tours]

Well one would assume that if there was a vote to leave Article 50 of the Brisbane Agreement would be invoked by the UK almost immediately. At that point "all treaties with the EU cease". The negotiations are then held between the UK and the Council of Ministers, the latter being the "qualifying majority", in other words we leave under the terms set out by the EU.

 

So it won't be for any individual EU state (like France) to decide what happens immediately, that is all taken care of in Article 50 and it is set in stone. So that means for instance S1 holders will no longer have access to any EU healthcare system and the UK EHIC card becomes invalid as would for instance a EU/UK driving licence. Part of the negotiations of leaving and the UK's future relationship with the EU will then be negotiated and these things may then be reintroduced but who knows and that's the point, nobody does because it has not happened before. The whole thing must be completed within 24 months (2 years) from the date Article 50 is invoked by the UK. Of course if the EU wants to be nasty it could be completed in under a week and they may not reinstate these things. I agree logically it would be stupid for them not to allow things to carry on as they are but we don't know and that's the point I guess.

 

I would suggest people have a look at article 50, it's actually quite simple to read and reasonable short (about one side of an A4 sheet) for more information.

[idun]

Discussing this with a friend a couple of weeks ago and she does not know anyone who wants to stay in. And she has a second home in Spain.

I have friends in France who have other worries about a possible brexit, as should the french living in the uk.

We will just have to wait and see and adapt our lives accordingly if it changes things. I refuse to worry.

[andyh4]

CT

I assume by Brisbane agreement you actually mean Lisbon Treaty. Here it says that withdrawal commences from the date where a withdrawal agreement is completed. So definitely not immediate, more like indefinite.

For the UK to pretend it were immediate would be catastrophic. Not only would all EU driving licences become invalid outside the UK, but so would all UK passports.

Idun

I can understand your French friends' concerns since I can see the FN getting an enormous boost by an exit: The more so if the UK gets the excellent trade deal that the Brexiteers would have us believe.

[Cathar Tours]

Yes it was the Lisbon Treaty, don't know where Brisbane came from!

 

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

The "withdrawal agreement" is the point where both sides agree that article 50 is to be implemented, not from the time the negotiations on how the country leaves the EU are completed. It is a two stage thing apparently. Of course like it says we could take as long as we like to agree to leave the EU, something no doubt Cameron has taken on board.

[Judith]

Not only would all EU driving licences become invalid outside the UK, but so would all UK passports.

??????

Surely not - UK passports remain what they are - UK passports, issued by the UK ... and will always be accepted as proof of ID, much as they were all those many years ago before the EU and the single market were thought of.

Likewise UK driving licences ... what would change there is that you would no longer be able to drive on a UK licences elsewhere without going though the hoops we used to have to do before EU agreements were put in place, and of course if you lived in another EU country you would have to go through an exchange mechanism ... to obtain a licence relevant for the country ...

Personally I prefer the easy options now available to us.

[Debra]

I presume what was meant was that they're not UK passports or UK driving licences anymore but EU passports and driving licences. I doubt they'd be invalid straight away though as the passport office and DVLA couldn't cope with issuing everyone with new ones overnight.

[Debra]

I've still got my original old expired blue UK passport somewhere but I never had a UK driving licence as I passed my test in Cyprus and luckily, they joined the EU and I was issued with the EU passport and didn't have to take the UK test within a year of returning there. :)

[Cathar Tours]

Have a look at the cover on your passport and your driving licence. It's the EU first followed by the member state. It really depends on what side you err on how you want to interpret these things. The real problem is nobody actually knows on either side. The only way you will know is if the UK leaves and that's the gamble those that want to leave have to take. The problem is as far as I see if it does not turn out the way they have said and the UK wants back in for any reason it won't be on the terms we currently have. The most obvious is that we would have to join the Euro if we rejoined. WE would also lose any rebates we currently have. Fortunately I doubt the UK will leave. I read today in one of the papers that the bookies have the stay vote now up in the early 80%'s. I certainly don't trust the polls, they have been terribly wrong at the last two general elections and at the last regional elections.

[Cathar Tours]

[quote user="Debra"]I presume what was meant was that they're not UK passports or UK driving licences anymore but EU passports and driving licences. I doubt they'd be invalid straight away though as the passport office and DVLA couldn't cope with issuing everyone with new ones overnight.[/quote]

and off course if they are forced to reissue who will pay or is that a silly question!

[NickP]

Got any more might haves, could be or what ifs Cathar. As for Passports and driving licences being invalid, I have just checked that it's not April 1st.

[Cathar Tours]

Citizenship of the European Union was introduced by the Maastricht Treaty which was signed in 1992 and has been in force since 1993. As a citizen of an EU member state you are also a citizen of the EU hence your passport says so. If the UK left the EU you would cease to be an EU citizen.

 

The EU driving licence as of 19th January 2013 is exactly that, an EU driving licence with an indication of where it is issued (Directive 2006/126/EEC).

 

My biggest point is nobody knows what would happen in reality if the UK left the EU. All we know is at the point of Article 50 being invoked all treaties between the UK and EU cease which is a fact as written.

 

You clearly disagree with this, you appear to be saying quite the opposite of what Article 50 is saying. So should the UK leave the EU and anyone from the UK gets stopped driving in France or at the airport when hiring a car because somebody says your driving licence is no longer valid in the EU we can quote you?

[YCCMB]

We'll, the passport and driving licence questions seem perfectly straightforward.

Anyone remember what happened when we joined the EU, or indeed when the European Driving licence was introduced?

All quite painless, really. We all just kept the documents we already had until they came up for renewal in one way or another, and when that happened, we just got the new type issued automatically as replacements. The old ones didn't suddenly "stop working" or become invalid.

Passports will automatically phase out over a ten year period, as that's how long they're valid for, and driving licences will almost certainly stay the same, as there's no logical reason to change them. After all, they contain all the necessary information and even before the introduction of the EU licence, you didn't need an international licence to drive in Europe.

Anyway, until such time as a decision is made, you're stuck with what you've got, and I can't envisage a scenario where UK tourists are suddenly rendered stateless or their cars impounded effective June 24th. As I said before, there are far, far, bigger fish to be fried if it comes to the crunch.

All this speculation feels like choosing carpets for a new build house before you've even bought the land.

[NickP]

You can quote me as much as you like Cathar, but it doesn't change the present situation, which is ; you are just saying what you think. Nowhere does is say; that if we leave the EU our passports and driving licences will be invalid, apart from in your head. Still you carry on spouting your doctrine and just possibly someone may believe you. I don't.

[Rabbie]

If there is a Brexit win in the referendum there will not necessarily be an immediate application to leave. Only once the application is made does the two year transition period start. So there is no way that passports or driving licences will become invalid without adequate notice being given. As Betty says it will done as part of the normal update process.

I have just compared my UK EU passport with Mrs Rabbie's Swedish EU passport. The two have different formats - the UK one has my photo and details at the back while the Swedish one has those at the front.

For once in this debate it would be nice if we could look at facts rather than scare stories or false/misleading statistics. Then we might reach a rational solution

[Judith]

This debate has made me look at  my passport again - it is definitely a UK passport (as well as an EU one as part of that), but this I did not know: 

Note no 1 "This passport is proof that the holder has right of abode in the UK if the holder's nationality is shown as British citizen [it is] ... or has an observation that the holder has right of abode in the UK".

Phew - well, it's nice to know I won't be stateless whatever happens!!!!

[NormanH]

Surely those of us who live full-time in France have French Driving licences?

[Debra]

I do - I exchanged it when the card part of my UK/EU one or whatever it was expired. I don't have the new card type though but the old paper one.

[andyh4]

Yes Norman, no problem for me I have changed to a French licence, but there will be many here who have second homes in France who don't have a French licence. There will be many Brits travelling on holiday who might just (and I do stress might) find that some jobsworth in Kathmandu will say that their licence is not valid anymore and no they cannot hire a car, or in Miami or wherever.

Likewise passports, I do hope that YCCMB is right, but the circumstances are now potentially different. When we joined the EEC, we were Brits and we remained so. Passports and licences remained valid on the basis that we remained Brits but in the EEC. In the event of a Brexit, we will no longer be citizens of the EU even though our passports and licences would suggest that we are. I truly hope that pragmatism will apply across the world ( and remember the problem is potentially some official or hire car clerk in Timbuctoo or other remote location and not necessarily in Frankfurt/Main or Bratislava.)

Recently we have seen the issues with "our special relationship partner" when people turned up without a fully chipped (but still valid) passport in the US - even if they had still valid entry visas. They were rejected.

An exit may be straightforward and trouble free in these areas, but please do not assume that they will. Remember that ASSUME

- makes an A S S out of U and ME.

Edited because the the A S S wholes who wrote the software cannot accept a word that describes an animal.

[Rabbie]

Andy, Whatever the result of referendum the UK will still be an EU member until June 2018 at the earliest so there will be plenty of time for this issue to be clarified. So no need to panic.

I agree with YCCMB and NickP that this is just a fuss about nothing and will be resolved without drama