elderly parents

[jjmb126]

I am trying to get advice on how to help my parents. I live the USA so not ideally situated for the current issues my parents are having.

Basically, my parent moved a small hamlet in Brittany when they retired. My Dad is an alcoholic so my Mum thought moving to the middle of nowhere would be a way of controlling this ailment. At the time, he was very ill and not expected to live much past his 60's. Mum was a 'young' fit 60 woman so if anything happened to her, she would cope. She was going to be like her Mother who soldiered on until she was in early 90's, However, it hasn't turned out like this and both of now in mid to late 70's. About 5 yrs ago we noticed Mum was stumbling a lot and her speech was becoming slurred as well as slow. She went to several doctors until she was finally diagnosed at the beginning of last year with a disease called Multiple System Atrophy. She is now severely disabled.

Fortunately within the hamlet, they have very good neighbours who check up on them all the time and a home help once a week. So despite, all their difficulties (Dad is showing signs of dementia) they are refusing to move. This past week, my Dad fell and broke his upper right arm. My Mother is unable to dress herself completely due to her disabilities or deal with personal issues. Dad has been her main carer in this respect. Now he can't dress himself, let alone deal with Mum. Today, Mum fell (its part of the disease she has) and unable to get up. Dad normally helps but due to his broken arm he couldn't, Fortunately a neighbour called in and was able to help.

After talking to this neighbour and finding out my Dad is sleeping downstairs and going around in his underwear, I have decided to fly over to France in the next couple of weeks to sort things out. This is not going to be easy as they are not excepting they need help. Additional factors are that one set of neighbours regularly go back to the UK for 2-3 wks during the year and they are busy in the summer with their rental business. The other neighbour recently found they have cancer and undergoing gruelling treatment so don't need the stress of looking out for my parents.

Looking into all this I have found that children are expected to look after their parents or face criminal charges in France. This is somewhat concerning me but it is also some thing I can point out to my parents as a reason for taking over their care which might mean moving to a nursing home. I don't think it would be France as my Dad, despite living in France for last 13 yrs, speaks not a word of French. I have 2 sisters who live in Medway.

How do I find out what my legal responsibilities are and how long does it take to put it in action. I don't think my parents would allow me to take on a power of attorney. Could I argue they can no longer be trusted to make this decision?

[PaulT]

Hopefully, some one more knowledgeable will come along but I assume that you are a US citizen and not a French citizen then on that basis cannot see how you could face criminal charges.

[jjmb126]

I am a dual citizen - US/British.

[Hereford]

You are quite right that in France a child has the legal obligation to look after a parent, whether or not the children are in France.  My parents are in France as are we but we have been having a problem as one parent is now in a Nursing Home and my only sibling is refusing to give income details to see how much the authorities assess she should pay towards the care.  It has now gone to the family court (not by my choice but the authorities) and although my sibling lives in another European country (not in fact the UK) the Judge here is going to assess her based on "average" income and issue a notice to that effect. I have been told by an Avocat that she can be made to pay. The fact that she is in Europe will make it easier to force payment and I have no idea how this would apply to the US.

Are either of your parents getting money from their dept. Conseil General to help with care costs at home?

To get a PofA you probably need to see a Notaire pdq when you get here. I am organising a Tutelle for my parent (more like the UK court of protection) and can do it myself but it has to go to a judge so cannot be done in two weeks! You need a letter from a suitable doctor, not their GP (a list is attached to application forms).  I do not know how it would work with you not being in  France.

I would have to write a book to explain all this but would be happy to be contacted by you and we can email. We are in Normandy not Brittany but that need not matter.

Hope this helps, it is a horrible situation for you and I sympathise.

Mrs H

PS Law was apparently strengthened after the heatwave a few years ago when lots of "grannies" died when their children went off for a month's holiday and no-one checked up on the old dears.

[woolybanana]

Hereford, I think that you can arrange a tutelle through the notaire without going to court etc if your parent is able to give consent. It takes the time of the meeting with the notaire, no more.

This law is only a couple of years old and ensures that the actions of the guardian are appropriate as the notaire has a statutory duty to oversee the accounts etc.

[Val_2]

Just to confirm that yes,any children of parents living in France are responsible by law for their upkeep in matters of medical and financial problems. Many families now are removing elderly parents from care hospitals and homes because they simply cannot afford to pay their part any longer as grants are cut and pensions don't grow.My neighbour an Aide Soignante has seen her client list treble within the past couple of list by newly removed elderly and handicapped people previously in state care back to their families who can no longer afford it and yes, wherever the families live, they must still contribute if the parents cannot. Its the same with bank loans/mortgages etc, children can also be held responsible to pay if the parents default if they are wage earners!

[Sprogster]

jjmb, I sympathise with your situation and from the description of your father it seems his dementia is fairly advanced.

Do you have extended family in the UK that could help investigate getting your parents into a care home there, as I agree if your father speaks no French going into care in France could be an isolating experience and more expensive.

Let us know how you get on as this is a very pertninent topic for the thousands of retiree Brits in France.

[Patf]

[quote user="Sprogster"] Let us know how you get on as this is a very pertninent topic for the thousands of retiree Brits in France.[/quote]

I would be glad to hear how you get on too - those of us who hope to stay here could well end up in a similar situation.

Wishing you and your parents well, and Bon Courage!

[Hereford]

Wooly: yes one can do a tutelle more easily if parent agrees but my mother cannot agree to anything (severe dementia, cannot speak etc etc) so it has to go to court. In fact looking at the forms I think it always goes to a court for agreement.  I have all the forms and will do it myself but a notaire can do it too (for a fee!!).  I did say that the OP should contact a notaire asap.

As far as peope being taken out of Homes I find that odd.  The avocat acting for my mother says that she has an absolute right to be in the Home and that once the Family Cort judge has decided what each family member must pay then the Conseil General must pick up the balance.  Perhaps more to the point is that the families don't want to pay.  One should remember though that any money provided by the CG over and above APA is potentially repayable when patient dies if there is property to inherit.

[jjmb126]

Thank you Hereford for your reply and it confirms my concerns. Not necessarily for myself as I am not sure that a French court could impose anything on me in the States. However the situation is different for my 2 sisters in the UK.

Hope you get your situation sorted out. Seems like a bit of minefield. Doesn't help when the said parents are refusing to get any help other than a home help once a week.

Mum has been told to stop driving but she still drives one of those sans permis vehicles from time to time despite her disabilities. If they were to fall and seriously injure themselves, I think we are opening ourselves to be judged negligent under French law. Have contacted an English neighbour to see if they know of any notaires who speak English who can help us.

[NormanH]

The French government site about having people put under a 'Tutelle',( appointing an agent  to watch over people who are no longer capable of managing their own affairs)  is here:

vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2120.xhtml#N1014E

I'm afraid it is in French so you would need to use something like Google to translate it..

[Val_2]

The reason why many people are being removed from care back to their families is a question of finance. Many of the old people my neighbour now has to visit are in their late 80's plus which means their children are now retired. Many are/were farmers and labourers andtheir pensions are tiny compared to state workers and others so they just cannot afford to pay out and survive themselves, hence the removals where they do get outside assistance daily by nurses,meals and cleaners etc at a cheaper cost.

[Patf]

That's what has happened to two families in our village. The old fellows went into a retirement home for a while, but re-appeared soon after.

One was very difficult , but has passed away now. With the other, the wife has sold their house, she's gone to live with a son, he's gone back to the Home, paid for by the proceeds of the house I suppose.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="jjmb126"]Thank you Hereford for your reply and it confirms my concerns. Not necessarily for myself as I am not sure that a French court could impose anything on me in the States. However the situation is different for my 2 sisters in the UK.

[/quote]

I cannot research at the moment, but in the past couple of years I am sure I've seen an article where UK resident children of a French resident have received a bill for their parent/s' care. I am sure I remember the answer was from a specialist in these things who said that the French system is required to send the bill to the children but once the children have said they cannot pay, the matter is dropped by the French authorities. In other words, the deduction by whatever means cannot be enforced cross-EU borders. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed a reputable source. Whether, of course, any attempt is made by France to retrieve their expenses at the eventual sale of the property is another matter and wasn't the question asked.

[quote user="jjmb126"]Mum has been told to stop driving but she still drives one of those sans

permis vehicles from time to time despite her disabilities. If they were to fall and seriously injure themselves, I think we are opening ourselves to be judged negligent under French law. Have contacted an English neighbour to see if they know of any notaires who speak English who can help us.[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean about your mother falling and you (and your siblings) being negligent? Anyway, mainly, notaires are self-employed State tax collectors who manage property and land matters, inheritance, wills, that sort of thing. There's some information here.

You'd consult one about your parents' property - disposal, tax, that sort of thing - but if you want to research your liabilities (or your mother's liability) if she caused an accident while out in her sans permis, I doubt a notaire is the place to start. I think your first stop would be your parents' insurers. While your mother does not need a licence to drive her vehicle, I am guessing that it is still insured and that would cover any accidents.

Good luck with what must be a very difficult situation.

[Hereford]

Ref: Enforcing payment across EU borders: I am told that this can be done but would be done by the Department (e.g. La Manche) . authorities not the rest of the family!  I cannot see why they cannot be enforced as driving/speeding fines can and help towards care would be every month not just a one off.

Regarding people taking their oldies home again:  I still find this odd as the contribution one is required to pay is means tested (I have filled in lots of forms re household income!!) and the original one to the Conseil Gen. office (normally the only one unless like us it has to go to court) has to be countersigned by the Maire who can, and I assume would, fill in and sign the section that says, obviously in French: "I do not consider that this person/s can pay anything."

I wonder whether the OP's parents get their home help with APA so that a Social Worker is already involved with his parents.

My mother could not possibly be brought home as she needs 24 hour care.

 

As for help at home: An English person I am helping sort out APA for her mother was told by the Social Worker that the hourly cost of the help at home if she employed direct (not an agency) would be 1 or 2 euros more than the allowance which is 11.70 per hour.  She has been horrified to discover that using the mandatory Cheque Emploi system the cotisations for her and her helper will be between 5 and 6 euros an hour on top of 11.70.  It seems that one must pay only the minimum wage to make the SW 's arithmetic anywhere near correct and she like we did before has found that no-one will look after old dears for the minimum wage (neither would I...).

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Hereford"]Ref: Enforcing payment across EU borders: I am told that this can be done but would be done by the Department (e.g. La Manche) . authorities not the rest of the family!  I cannot see why they cannot be enforced as driving/speeding fines can and help towards care would be every month not just a one off.

[/quote]

Driving / speeding fines may be able to be enforced cross-border - but as an offence has been committed by the person concerned, enforcing a speeding fine is in no way a relevant comparison. For the penalty to be enforced, it would have to go to court - then there is officially a fixed penalty to be pursued and paid.

Hereford, I realise that you are being told the opposite but, even if France would like to make it so, having elderly parents in France is not an offence for which children living elsewhere can be penalised. Even morally. This is a French law and France can say what it likes but common sense (yes, I know) highlights the difficulties.

The idea falls down on the practicalities - how would children resident in another country be forced to contribute? Elderly parents in France might well have retired children in the UK existing on basic pensions. Capacity to contribute would have to be means tested and - presumably as you are finding - France has no right to financial information relating to a British (or US) citizen / resident who has committed no offence.

The idea that a French court could then force a British resident to pay several thousand euros per month (or more, judging by my mother's care home costs in England) when they cannot prove the income or living expenses is absurd. The UK residents could end up on benefits or pension support in order for France to get its cut for the parents. Which, of course, doesn't mean that France wouldn't try but France asking a British court to enforce a French law simply on the basis that a British resident's parents live in France isn't likely to be successful. Even if a French offical says it could happen. Saying it could happen is a long way from "it does (or even will) happen".

Hereford, I hope that what is presumably a very difficult situation with your sibling is resolved amicably, though.

Edited to add: I've been trying to find the article I mentioned previously but can't. I've a feeling I read it in a physical newspaper - probably the Telegraph or Guardian but definitely not the Connexion!

[Hereford]

Forms for details of income do go out to children wherever they live in the world (in fact my sister is not in the UK but another EU country). Madame the Judge says that as said sister has not given details - she sent the form back saying she did not understand it - she will be assessed on a "medium" income!! Apart from the hassle involved for us we do not think the authorities will actually get anything from her but I gather that they will try. Our Avocat was highly unimpressed with sister.  They certainly expect French children to contribute wherever they live.  Anyway improves my French sorting all this out even if I never wanted to learn this way.

Catalpa: one thing is much easier than the UK for once. Fees are around half of UK rates and the Home my mother is in is better than any I have seen in UK, even expensive ones. I saw a lot as we had clients with Homes. The Cons. Gen. contributes towards the Care component without any hassle - it is just the Board & Lodging bit that is means tested further.

We are getting away from the original posted question  I really hope his problem can be sorted.

[Mikep]

My sympathy to the original poster - an unenviable position to end up in.

We had fifteen happy years in France, but after a couple of short spells in a French hospital (one each), realized the potential difficulties of growing old in France, not just to us but much more to our family (still in UK). The admin and paperwork of old age and illness followed by (eventual) death looks to be an absolute nightmare - worse than the illnesses . We decided to move back to an English-speaking country for our old age (both 70-ish), sold up in France after a struggle (just avoiding capital gains tax), and moved to the Isle of Man.

We had English-law wills and Powers of Attorney sorted within a month, domicile shortly after, National Health service doctor and dentist, and pensions transferred. Now we can die tidily (hopefully not for another 15-20 years) with no inheritance tax, leave the pension funds to the kids, and pay only10-20% income tax in the meantime.

It certainly wouldn't suit everybody, but I would urge other Forum readers to think ahead to how (and where) you want to spend your 80's and 90's.

France is fabulous for the young and fit, not quite so good for the old, particularly without families.

[jjmb126]

thanks for all the info. Given the information that my Mum got from the specialist on Monday and the fact her neighbour was there to ask about the driving (No NO NO!), they are now considering moving back to the UK. So hopefully this situation will be resolved soon.

As to the question about falling and injuring, if a judge could decide a parent has injured themselves because they are in a situation that is a danger which could have been addressed by providing help and care, the child(ren) can be assess as negligent in the care of that parent. Much like you would if you had a child in the need of care.

[linfr]

We are in a similar position. We moved to the Cantal 20 years ago and have been very happy here. My mother moved with us as I am an only child and all other relatives were a long way from Mum. However, in 1993 Mum was 70 and it was not possible to start a Mutuelle. I tried all the Assurances that I could find (no internet then unfortunately!) and none would take Mum on. She was going to put money aside but that went by the board when the exchange rate fell and she effectively lost a third of her money.

We are now about to sell up and move back, not just for Mum and the implications to us, but we are gathering grandchildren now and want to be involved in their lives - Skype is brilliant but not as good as a cuddle! Also, my husband now has severe hearing difficulties and it is so much easier to be deaf in your mother tongue!

We are moving Mum back next month, she is very frail now at 91 and if we leave it she may not be able to travel - I'm quite staggered at how quickly she has deteriorated. We will have to plonk ourselves on my son and his family who live in a town house so far from ideal for all. We can't make an appointment to have Mum assessed for a home until we are in the UK so I have to be prepared to stay for a while. Mum thinks this is a temporary stay until we sell and move over, but in reality I think it will be for good. We are getting to the stage where she needs more care than we can give her. IF Mum is not accepted by the care system in the UK then we have real problems. I don't think that moving her back here will be possible but I don't want to be in the position of having to use Mum as a pawn. Suddenly life is very complicated!

[jjmb126]

Despite my optimism before my journey to France, after 2 days here I realised it was entirely misplaced. They are determined to stay and seem to think care in a long term care home is free. They have also been told or read that getting care in the UK will take at least 18 months and even to see a doctor it will take 6 months. A couple of hours a go I was for upping sticks immediately but have since calmed down a bit. I have asked a local boy here (he is 24 so not really a boy) who is English and fluent in French as he was educated here to accompany me to the local Marie to explain the situation. Reading the link in an earlier post, it seems the commune can take control of guardianship if things deteriorate as much I foresee Maybe the Marie can explain more clearly the cost of residential care for my Mum, which they accept will be need sooner rather than later. Also means the commune knows they can have guardianship if they need to go down that route.

I will keep you updated on what happens over the next few months as a guide to elderly care for expats in France, as obviously that is going to be our experience now.

[Russethouse]

Oh dear, good luck with all your problems...

[idun]

Isn't this what you can do under the circumstances

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2120.xhtml

[Hereford]

Ask their Maire for details of one of the organisations who give advice (in Brittany) on Maisons de Retraite and applying for help from the Conseil General. In Normandie it is CLIC.  Also look in Pages Jaunes for the nearest Maison de Retraite and ask for a brochure which will show costs and they can tell you the likely time delay before that are likely to have a vacancy.  I was quoted anything from one year to two!  In fact my mother went in eventually as an emergency and is very lucky that the one with a vacancy was the best one in our area.

Approx. costs of B&B element (I am assuming it will be similar to here in Normandie) are around 1600 euros a month. The care part is means tested - only on parents - and is called APA. The remainder if it cannot be covered by the patient is means tested on all children  (wherever in the world they are). If children - or oner of them-  refuse to fill in income forms the help will be refused and one has to go to court.  (Whether or not they can actually force money from someone in US is another question - I merely point out that the form MUST be completed.) I have personal experience of this.

You can put someone on a waiting list for a M de R whenever you like and see what happens. My mother was put on two waiting lists 2 years ago and was never offered a place before her emergency entry to one we had never visited.

I cannot even think what would happen if you will need two places at once. Vacancies come up in these Homes mostly for one obvious reason...

As a note the 1600 euros is about half the cost of one in the UK!  Also in Normandie you cannot ask for help with the B&B part until savings are down to 5,000 euros.

Good luck and best wishes. What a worry for you.

[Mikep]

I hope that you will be able to arrange satisfactory care in France, but

surely it would be much easier for them to re-integrate in the UK?

After we

moved back (admittedly to the Isle of Man, but still NHS), we were

signed up for NHS doctors and dentists within a couple of weeks (and we

arrived just before New Year). We haven't needed any of the social care

services, but my mother (now 92) uses them in England and they have never

questioned her background or residence (she has lived in UK all her life). Everyone else seems to get the services without question. However, it has been quite difficult to explain what services she needs and to arrange for them to be provided - it would be a nightmare having to do it in French, and I'm reasonably fluent after 15 years there!

Provided that they have current UK passports (with right of abode, which presumably they have to live in France), I don't think there is anything to stop them moving to the UK and asking for support immediately after arrival.

I

can quite see that they may not want to live squeezed in with family,

but maybe you should get them to consider what happens when one of them

dies - not a happy prospect, but inevitable and, sadly, probable before long. Can the sisters in Medway not provide any support?

Would it be worth researching the employment of a live-in carer, if you can find suitable accommodation? Probably East European, these days - I don't know how you would go about it, and clearly it would depend on what financial resources you have available.

Good luck - it sounds as if you will need it!