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Bee problems


thunderhorse
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We came back from a week in the UK to find our

loft (in the process of conversion) with a carpet of dead bees.

Apparently they had tried to swarm from the old chimney, couldn't get

out, and perished as a result. The local knowledgables have tried

ruchettes, but without success.

The bees access the old chimney under the tiles just below the

ridge two courses in from the gable end (about in line with the face of

the inside of the wall.) The chimney is otherwise blocked off and

inaccessible. On recommendation, I've sprayed polyurethane foam between

the lattice work and the chimney breast, which has kept most of them out, but not sorted the problem. There's a veritable cloud of bees over the roof every day.

A bee-keeper suggested not calling the pompiers, as they'd stomp around

filling the place with smoke, not getting deep in the chimney, and

charging me €90 for the priviledge.

A friend suggested taking out a stone at the top of the chimney (all

from inside the loft) to see what the situation was, but another

decried that idea as the bees may emerge rather angrily.

Short of jetting all sorts of killer fluids up under the lats, or

under the tiles from on the roof, and then filling with foam (not

guaranteed to block off any little access hole to the top of the

chimney), I'm at a bit of a loss as to the best method to tackle them.

From inside or outside? Remove stones, tiles, lats? Squirt fluids

and foam? Best time of day? How far down the chimney could they be?

What about piercing the chimney from loft floor level (would they be

that far down - 4m?) and get suitable smoke in that way?

I'm wanting to sort this asap before I plasterboard out the ceiling space, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
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As as lifelong beekeeper my sympathies lie entirely with the bees, who do no harm and much good. 

The symptoms you describe sound very much as if they have been caused by some interference with their customary entrance.  You would solve this by ensuring that they have a single convenient means of access to the chamber where they are established, blocking any exits which are not convenient, and leaving them alone.

Or, if you must encourage them to go:  remove the cover from the chimney and throw down a quantity of proprietory bee-repellant  -  this is sold in England as e.g. 'Bee-go', and is based on paradichlorobenzene.  This available from bee-keepers suppliers.   This method is not, in my experience, very certain, and you may well find bees emerging in all sorts of unexpected places throughout the house.

Or, if you wish to kill them in situ, you can achieve this by burning sulphur in the cavity where they are established  -  this is readily available, with a burner, from any vintners suppliers.

As regards the time of day, do not disturb them at night  -  any disoriented bee will be attracted by the artificial light of your and your neighbours windows.  Do it in the day so that bees which find themselves within the house will be inclined to go outside towards the sun.  If bees are trapped in a room, simply open a window.

In the vicinity of their nest a bee, if molested, will emit pheremones signalling fear and danger which will elict a rapid aggressive response from her colleagues.  Wild flailing and swatting should therefore be avoided.  It is sensible to wear a hat so that they do not become entangled in your hair with similar consequences.

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Many thanks for the advice. I'd rather not destroy them, but I've heard of all sorts of problems caused by bees in chimneys year after year: hives getting bigger, honey blackening walls where it seeps through insecure stonework etc. (and this from bee-keepers.) And the new bedroom window and Veluxes in the loft are likely to be a perennial source of ingress, being right underneath the apex of the ridge.

So how far down the chimney are they likely to be, and what would be the easiest access for applying any sort of dispersant? What about removing a stone low down in the chimney breast and investigating from there? Or seal the interior roof/wall joint as effectively as possible?

Many thanks.

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For obvious logistical reasons their nest is likely to be placed very shortly beyond their point of ingress  -  therefore in your case near the top.  But it has been wisely observed that bees never do anything invariably.

Yes, if I were going to do what you are evidently intent on doing I would make a convenient opening relatively low down, and insert a tin can with some well lit charcoal and sulphur.  Cover the opening with a bit of gauze.  And await their demise.

But you will have gathered that I say this entirely against my better judgment, and regard such an intervention as quite perversely unjustifiable.

I remember a huge colony of bees in the chimney of the farmhouse of one of my aunts fifty years ago.  I am glad to say that both bees and aunt are still going strong, and with no ill effect whatever from this long and peaceful cohabitation.  Another aunt in east Devon had one between the beams of her kitchen above the plaster (which was no blacker than you would expect), and they came and went through a hole near the kitchen door.  All perfectly satisfactory.

Yes, honey is hygroscopic, and is certainly likely to seep out and cause problems once you have destroyed the bees.  It will not leak out whilst they are in charge.

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SWARMS OF BEES

I notice that little has been said on the forum about this phenomenon, and offer the following few points:

Swarms of honey bees are most common in May, June and July, but may occur much earlier and later in the year.  They are the natural means by which a colony of bees reproduces itself.  A colony may emit one or several swarms in one 'episode' of swarming, the first of which will be led by the old queen.

Whilst swarming, bees are notably docile, and should not be regarded as a danger.  They are very unlikely to sting, and will submit to very direct handling without annoyance.

If they land on some external object such as a bush, branch, or garden seat, leave them alone and they will almost certainly have departed for their permanent destination before nightfall.  They almost invariably make such a temporary halt, usually in the vicinity of their original home.  If the swarm shows signs of settling on you, take a brisk walk through thick foliage, or plunge into your swimming pool  -  provided, of course, the chlorine levels are correct.

Whilst bees are swarming they can readily be removed with a minimum of equipment (a cardboard box and a cigarette) by someone with a very little expertise. 

Once they are established in a new permanent site their removal becomes much more difficult.  And they become established very quickly.  The construction of the wax comb begins immediately on arrival, and the queen will lay the first eggs of the new colony with a day or so.  Unlike parents on the Costas, bees are very disinclined to abandon their brood.

Which means that a swarm entering your chimney - if you are against the idea of bees in your chimney - is a circumstance to be headed off by immediate action.  This is simply done by lighting a slow smoky fire in the hearth with e.g. damp newspaper and sacking.  This will rapidly disincline the bees from making a permanent home there.  A tablespoonful of sulphur on the fire will add greatly to their sense of discouragement.  Do not wait to take this simple and effective action.  Tomorrow, for the reasons given, they will be much more difficult to dislodge, and will be more inclined to express resentment if their new home is interfered with.

If the fireplace is blocked the situation is a little more difficult to deal with.  A simple expedient is:  crush some moth-balls and wrap them in a piece of muslin.  Lower this parcel several feet down the chimney on a piece of string, and the swarm will be very unlikely to stay there.  Again, this action should be taken immediately upon the arrival of the swarm.

P.S.  And swarms are of course lucky, and the occasion of making a wish  -  a privilege which extends through much of the European Community.

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This is so interesting Gengulphus, Bees have always fascinated me, and it's great to hear a bit more about it. Yesterday we had a Swarm of Bees at a house near us , they were swarming into the road and I saw somebody had put a box there and the bees had settled down near the box in a big clump.  This may be a stupid question but what do you do with the cigarette? Where would you put the cigarette, not in the box? Thank you for the tip about the moth balls.
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The information provided by Gengulphus is fascinating and the kind of useful post that I can never find again when I need it in a hurry!  Could one of the mods make it into an FAQ at the head of the gardening section? - I'm sure it would be appreciated.

Val

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[quote user="Monika"]Yesterday we had a Swarm of Bees at a house near us , they were swarming into the road and I saw somebody had put a box there and the bees had settled down near the box in a big clump.[/quote]

I do hope that you put on your hat and went out fearlessly to have a good and close look.

[quote user="Monika"]Where would you put the cigarette…?[/quote]

Well, a settled swarm, such as the one you saw in a 'cluster' are simply waiting for 'scout' bees to come back with the coordinates of their new destination.  This information is conveyed with great accuracy and may relate to a location several miles away, and to which they will travel (almost always) that same day. 

But this temporary halt presents an ideal opportunity for the enterprising beekeeper to subvert their intention by offering them a pleasing home on the spot.  Hence the presence of the box.  A beekeeper generally uses a traditional straw 'skep' for this purpose - because it is light, robust, and can be held in place with e.g. a pitchfork, if necessary.  But a cardboard box is a perfectly adequate substitute.

There are various simple ways of coaxing or forcing the bees into the box, and this can generally be accomplished rapidly and with little difficulty.  Very occasionally, if they are reluctant, a little whiff of smoke may encourage them to move.  In the absence of more sophisticated equipment a small cylinder of tobacco, placed in the mouth and lit, has on occasions provided me with an ideal means of delivering small and controllable quantities of smoke.

This technology is extremely ancient, and rock paintings of neolithic date exist which show humans using smoke whilst robbing bees nests.

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We had a swarm of bees enter one of our disused chimneys a couple of years ago - they turned up, buzzed about for half an hour then one by one dissapeared into a small hole in the capping stone! they are still there & we dont mind them - Lola (stupid dog) gets stung occasionally, but then she tries to eat them.......We leave them alone to get on with their lives.

Steve

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I can understand the reluctance to kill bees - and wish I could find a way of discouraging them peacefully - but can't agree with leaving them alone at (almost) all costs.

I suppose it's no problem for a bee keeper to do some tiling work on a roof in a cloud of bees. But what do you say to a friend who almost died from anaphalactic shock following a sting (she was unconscious and hardly breathing when found)? Leave the bees alone? She's now into her second year of expensive desentisisation treatment at Niort.

Co-existence between man and bee may be OK at times for some, but it may be far from ideal for others.

Excellent information, though, in previous posts.

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[quote user="thunderhorse"]

But what do you say to a friend who almost died from anaphalactic shock following a sting

[/quote]

I too have suffered a terrible anaphylactic reaction and thought I was going to die etc. etc.  It was a most interesting experience, but not one I wish to repeat too soon.

Entertainingly, however, it was not caused by a bee-sting (of which I have had many hundreds) but from handling paradychlorobenzene  -  the very stuff which is used to repel bees. 

So I live in permanent fear of having a fatal encounter with a mothball.  Such is life.

What can you say?  Perhaps:  Do have a peanut?

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[quote user="thunderhorse"]I suppose it's no problem for a bee keeper to do some tiling work on a roof in a cloud of bees.

[/quote]

This is not a last ditch attempt to discourage you from ridding yourself of what you perceive to be a problem.  But forgive me for expressing the suspicion which has lain in my mind since this thread opened.

The two principal symptoms of which you complain viz:  a cloud of bees over the roof, and a mass of dead bees trapped in an attic, are not normal ones.  They raise the strongest possible likelihood that someone, either accidentally, or deliberately, or misguidedly believing it to be a sensible course of action, has blocked their entrance.  It is as simple as that.

And the present inconveniences will be instantly and greatly alleviated simply by unblocking it again.  Or, if that is not suitable, by taking a star chisel and hammer and cutting them a nice neat new hole about an inch in diameter into their cavity.  It can be done in five minutes. 

If bees fly out of a hole (say) 20 ft high, that is the level at which they fly.  They do not swoop down in search of anaphylactics.

This really is an easy, cheap and common-sense experiment which is worth trying before moving on to more extreme measures.

If, however, you do exterminate them, you must take account of the matters then to be dealt with:

a)   Twenty thousand dead insects in your damp chimney, which will present the greatest possible temptation to all manner of scavengers.  You may well think it is blocked off, but mice, as beekeepers know only too well, can squeeze through a gap of less than 1/4 inch.

b)   A kilo or two of rotting larvae.

c)   Up to a hundredweight (or more) of deliquescent honey, oozing heaven knows where, and which will offer the greatest possible temptation to future swarms unless you block every possible means of entry  -  especially the ones that you are unaware of.

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Having been in the house only a few weeks, and had a roof repair done by the local mason, the problem may well have been caused by the relaying and cementing of the ridge tiles right up to the apex.

So now I need to get a hole in from the outside close up to the apex of the ridge when there are no bees about... Or seal the roof even more securely from the inside to stop the odd ones dropping through the lats.

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[quote user="thunderhorse"]So now I need to get a hole in from the outside close up to the apex of the ridge when there are no bees about...

[/quote]

Excellent.  If I were there I would go up the ladder now and do it for you. 

[quote user="thunderhorse"]Or seal the roof even more securely from the

inside to stop the odd ones dropping through the lats.

[/quote]

There will not be any need.  Reopening their entrance, I assure you, will instantly solve this problem by relieving their desperate search for another means of access.  This is merely tinkering with a symptom  -  not the underlying problem.

And if you block up the ceiling even more securely, you will simply oblige them to force their way out behind the skirting board, under the stairs, in the downstairs lav or via yet some other crevice that you are at present unaware of.  I have recently been down precisely this road (or rather watched with interest as someone else went down it).

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As a "hospitalised three times" anaphalactic (spiders and ants, not bees) I sympathise with the predicament, however bees are good things (as opposed to those bl**dy wasps) and if you can live and let live then surely that is the best solution.

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