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Is a devis without Siret still legally binding?


TerreRouge
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Dear Forum,

I'm a home owner in south France trying (!) to get a house renovated to be able to take guests to generate an income.

I apologise upfront for being longwinded... I'm told I talk too much :)

So, I have a electrician who has started work on my house but who has stopped because we need other trades to be able to proceed. He has done less than 5% of the overall project so far (agreed and itemised on Devis) but I paid a 29% deposit on signing the devis.

The last few times he came (he only seems to work in 2 or 3 hour increments) he told me I need to pay extra money to make the deposit up to 30 or 35% I can't remember exactly.

I couldn't understand why even though he kept giving me reasons, I just couldn't make sense of them. I had paid him exactly what he asked me for as a deposit and he certainly hasn't worked or supplied materials to the value of that deposit yet.

The last time he visited he became quite agitated and aggressive because I would not give him a cheque for the extra.

Up until that point he had worked intermittently for short periods, either turning up without notice and not turning up when he said he would. He always smells very strongly of spirits, first thing in the morning or otherwise. I have already had work related issues and he often becomes bullish and says I cannot have what I want to have done or in the way I want to have it done (I am no trades person myself but have worked with building trades for the last 20 years and think I pretty realistic and adaptable). I have often felt that I am here to please him rather than the other way round. I have been told (since starting work with him) to 'be careful', that he does not finish jobs, that he 'disappears' and now that he went bankrupt a few years ago.

Overall, my experience with trades so far has been challenging.

At this point I feel quite strongly that the relationship with the electrician has the potential to sour quite severely (or already has) and there is a serious risk that, for the 3rd year running, we will not be able to use our house for guests (to generate much needed income) next spring/summer.

I would like to be able to cut my losses and dismiss him or cancel the devis or whatever the term is so I have begun to look into how to do this, with the understanding that the signed devis is legally binding.

In this process I am beginning to study the documents I have on file and I cannot see a Siret on any of the devis or factures he has supplied. Immediately I'm concerned that that this means he has no insurance, that he is not paying taxes and that the devis/factures would not be valid (if we wanted to sell the house for example)
but does that also mean that the devis I signed is not the legally binding document (regarding dismissal / cancellation) that I thought it was?

I'd be very grateful for your collective wisdom and input on the subject.

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Sorry to break this to you but if you are knowingly using an unregistered tradesman, ie on the black, then you are breaking the law. So you wouldn't want to take this to law.

In France the onus is on the client to ensure any tradesmen he uses are correctly registered.

If he has no siret number he will have no insurance either.

As WB says - ask him for his siret number and cross your fingers he has one.
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Call his bluff. Ask to see his Siret number, if he has one there are several website you can check to see if it is valid, for which trades and the insurance that goes with it. If he does not have one then tell him you will pay nothing more and if that is a problem he can call the Gendarmes. Even better offer to call them while he is there, to protect his interests of course (wink). My guess is he will throw a few obscenities at you and that will be the last your hear from him.

Word to wise. Next time ask to see their Siret number and their insurance before you sign anything. Eurotrash is almost right in that it is your responsibility to check these things. Very few people ever get prosecuted in France for employing people on "the black". Prosecution often follows some sort of accident and that will cost you dearly, possibly your house.
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Many thanks for your responses Eurotrash, Woolybanana and youself Cathar Tours.

I realise that my ignorance is no excuse for the situation I'm in. I didn't understand the significance of the siret or siren. The importance of the devis and these numbers hasn't been highlighted to me by anyone, in all the dealings I've had so far with French agencies including my insurers, in all the books I've read about 'renovating a french house' and even french friends and colleagues, which is why I'm in the dark and asking you good people for advice.

But I now get the importance of the siret at least and I'm won't make that mistake again.

I think as you say, I will have to ask for the Siret and proof of insurance and go from there.

With the amount of trouble and time it's taken me to get this far in this house I have no intention of using any unoffical anything. I need everything up front and transparent.

I don't want there to be any excuses not to be allowed to stay after next March for a start...

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I seem to remember my father telling me that you need to keep all these Devis etc for when you sell the house because in some situations they can be offset against the "profit" i.e. what you bought it for and what you might sell it for with regards to any tax you might be liable for.

I am not saying it's the case here but many people seem to leave their common sense on the ferry. Back in the UK you would typically get around three quotes, look at their work and even perhaps visit the local builders merchant before deciding which one to use where as this all seems to go out the window when they get to France and they take the first person they see.

There are also some good, properly French qualified and registered, English builders around. I know this because my father used one when an idiot knocked his concreate gate post over. The insurance company check not just the Devis but the legitimacy of the English builder before saying yes to the work being done.

To find another electrician I would suggest Yellow Pages, they exist in all countries. Get a couple of Devis before you decide which one to use and check them out on the Internet.
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Whatever, along as you can prove the value of the works, who did them, they were properly registered and charged TVA with a payment signature/stamp your be fine.

Some work you might be able to get tax relief on anyway. My father did but it was a long time ago. He had 10k Euros of new chimney and wood burner put it and got about 8k back from the tax man. You need to check this out like for heating and insulation. There should be a government website with the info on and others here should be able to point you in the right direction.
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